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Can religion be logical?

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
There is no error in saying that believing in impossible events is illogical. Do you believe Jesus walked on water? Is this belief base upon logic or upon faith?
Thus the difference between relgion and science - science insists you cannot walk on water (unassisted), based upon the physics of water and your bouyancy. Religion says these properties don't matter and Jesus walked upon water - illogical, but based upon their faith.

I have a difficult time believing that somebody could take multiple logic courses and then write the post above.

The possibility of a thing has nothing whatever to do with whether the thing is logical or not. :cover: We are dealing with either sound or unsound. Does the conclusion follow the premises.
 

Chevalier Violet

Active Member
I have a difficult time believing that somebody could take multiple logic courses and then write the post above.

The possibility of a thing has nothing whatever to do with whether the thing is logical or not. :cover: We are dealing with either sound or unsound. Does the conclusion follow the premises.

I believe he took logic classes. But I admit, this is odd since the poster does not seem to be referring to "logic" in the formal logic, abstract language sense. I suspect there is a miscommunication here somewhere.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Exactly. And you can never be certain.


How do you know there even is a ball? Sure, you can make the following proposition.

There is a ball
There is gravity.
Gravity causes objects to come down.
If I throw the ball up, gravity will cause it to come down.

This syllogism only works if you take for granted there is a ball and there is gravity. How can you be certain you aren't imagining the ball? Or imagining the people that confirm the ball's existence to you? Or imagining that it comes down because your world view is based on gravity and your mind conscious mind cannot handle a lack of gravity so the subconcious mind creates it? It's the same for religion.
Your prospective syllogism only survives within the realm of extreme (ie. unreasonable) skepticism, in which (it is argued that) NOTHING is ever conclusively certain (by mens of objective validation/confirmation) or even acceptably "knowable" (as purported and reasonably conclusive fact).

Is that REALLY the identically removed perspective held by most religions/faiths? In effect, is "trust nothing...doubt everything" the penultimate hallmark and guidepost of faith based claims and beliefs?

There is a God.
God is loving.
Loving beings care about their children.
We are God's children.
Therefore, God cares about us.

Again, this syllogism only works if we take for granted that there is a God etc., yet it is exactly as logical as the preceeding syllogism, and based on exactly the same amount of faith (which overcomes uncertainty).
Your "equality" syllogism fails within the very same parameters that you suggest either/both perspectives must [logically] be flawed...or otherwise "become" equally valid/plausible; yet (somehow serve) at the same time to subsequently validate concurrently fallacious conclusions. It's poor defense to argue that your rationale is "no worse (nor any better) than" evidence-based estimations/conclusions as otherwise presented/delivered/derived acceptable fact.

"I can't prove it, but I believe it anyway" is not an argument supported by any reasoned logic.

C'mon.

If anything and everything that appears to be concrete and substantial (by means of tactile interactions, measures, and qualifications of consistency by means of independent observation), is but a construct/figment of a (any) human consciousness that may or may not even exist...then why even bother to debate the concept itself?

If we, as rational and self-aware human beings can at least agree (beyond the absurdly imposed realm of absolute skepticism) that our perceived existence is indeed "real", then at least a valid comparison of qualafiable/quantifiable claims can be assessed.

"There is a ball", vs. "There is a God."

A ball can be touched. measured, and qualified within discernible boundaries. What is the texture, measure, or qualifiable boundary attributed to any given deity?

"There is gravity.", vs. "God is loving."

Gravity offers predictive qualities, and it's effect can be objectively measured and observed. Is any of "God's love" subject to similar qualifications/measures?

"Gravity causes objects to come down.", vs. "Loving beings care about their children."

Gravity is measured as a relative constant. Is there any measurable or observable constant regarding love and/or care of offspring? Is there any available data to suggest that love is perhaps both inconsistent and unpredictable?

"If I throw the ball up, gravity will cause it to come down.", vs. "We are God's children. Therefore, God cares about us."

Gravity seems to exert reliably repeatable aspects of predictability. Such manifestations/effects can be observed, measured, and objectively tested. How does one begin to measure (much less prospectively falsify) any [claimed] existent deity, much less hope to accurately account of it's (their) conscience, "feelings", or behavior? Does gravity evoke any apparent conscious aspects of anger, vengeance, or compassion? If you or I express disdain or unbelief regarding gravity, should we expect it to affect us differently from those that "believe" in gravity?

Hey. I'm a "skeptic", and I remain dubious about most claims of "authenticity", whether they be based upon preliminary evidences, or merely borne of wishful thinking/faith. But even most ardent skeptics are compelled to operate within realms of the tangible, the tactile, and the observable. Sure, there might be an entire universe contained within one atom of my thumb...but is that fanciful notion likely, or plausibly suggested by even one whit of empirically evaluative evidences?

If a person claims to be interactively conversant with their God on a daily basis...is that person delusional, crazy, or "divinely touched/inspired" in some way? Who is qualified to validate or discredit such a claim, or ascertain the "truth" of a claimant's sanity/status?? What concrete/objective evidence is to be presented as to verify or invalidate such a claim/state?

Kierkegaardian existentialism is reproved bunk, especially as even ole' Soren himself acknowledged that the individual might (perhaps) "know" a "God", but only in a "leap of faith" above/beyond either established creedal doctrines, or available empirical evidences.

Allow me to revise your syllogism to more comparable application/comparison.

If gravity exists, and if: "What goes up, must come down" is "true", then...

"If God exists, then His effect is universally applicable, and affects us all equally" should also be "true".

It appears that gravity is the measurable constant, but neither "belief", nor "faith" can ever (supposedly) exceed the measure or understanding resident within the individual himself (being that self-realization or divine "revelation" . This may lead to rationalized "beliefs" in literally thousands (millions?) of different deities, but gravity effects everyone equally...without bias, favor, or prejudice...whether they "believe" in gravity or not.

Gravity is utterly ambivalent to our existence; not some omnisciently existent entity that serves to define (or perpetrate) existence.

Can the cosmos exist without a god (or gods)?

Can a god (or gods) exist in the absence of any "believing" sentient beings?

As you are a self-acknowledged Christian, I advance this:

"Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.

Faith is the result of teaching (Rom. 10:14-17). Knowledge is an essential element in all faith, and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith (John 10:38; 1 John 2:3). Yet the two are distinguished in this respect, that faith includes in it assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the understanding. Assent to the truth is of the essence of faith, and the ultimate ground on which our assent to any revealed truth rests is the veracity of God.

This assent to or belief in the truth received upon the divine testimony has always associated with it a deep sense of sin, a distinct view of Christ, a consenting will, and a loving heart, together with a reliance on, a trusting in, or resting in Christ... Faith is necessary to our salvation (Mark 16:16), not because there is any merit in it, but simply because it is the sinner's taking the place assigned him by God, his falling in with what God is doing...

...The warrant or ground of faith is the divine testimony, not the reasonableness of what God says, but the simple fact that he says it. Faith rests immediately on, "Thus saith the Lord." But in order to this faith the veracity, sincerity, and truth of God must be owned and appreciated, together with his unchangeableness. God's word encourages and emboldens the sinner personally to transact with Christ as God's gift, to close with him, embrace him, give himself to Christ, and take Christ as his. That word comes with power, for it is the word of God who has revealed himself in his works, and especially in the cross. God is to be believed for his word's sake, but also for his name's sake.
"
--Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Or this thought, just for fun...

"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love."
--Albert Einstein
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Greetings!

>Can religion be logical?

Suffice it to say one of the central principles of the Baha'i Faith is that true religion must agree with science and reason!

So for us, this isn't even a question!

Best, :)

Bruce
 

Chevalier Violet

Active Member
Your prospective syllogism only survives within the realm of extreme (ie. unreasonable) skepticism, in which (it is argued that) NOTHING is ever conclusively certain (by mens of objective validation/confirmation) or even acceptably "knowable" (as purported and reasonably conclusive fact).

Is that REALLY the identically removed perspective held by most religions/faiths? In effect, is "trust nothing...doubt everything" the penultimate hallmark and guidepost of faith based claims and beliefs?

Your "equality" syllogism fails within the very same parameters that you suggest either/both perspectives must [logically] be flawed...or otherwise "become" equally valid/plausible; yet (somehow serve) at the same time to subsequently validate concurrently fallacious conclusions. It's poor defense to argue that your rationale is "no worse (nor any better) than" evidence-based estimations/conclusions as otherwise presented/delivered/derived acceptable fact.

"I can't prove it, but I believe it anyway" is not an argument supported by any reasoned logic.

C'mon.

If anything and everything that appears to be concrete and substantial (by means of tactile interactions, measures, and qualifications of consistency by means of independent observation), is but a construct/figment of a (any) human consciousness that may or may not even exist...then why even bother to debate the concept itself?

If we, as rational and self-aware human beings can at least agree (beyond the absurdly imposed realm of absolute skepticism) that our perceived existence is indeed "real", then at least a valid comparison of qualafiable/quantifiable claims can be assessed.

"There is a ball", vs. "There is a God."

A ball can be touched. measured, and qualified within discernible boundaries. What is the texture, measure, or qualifiable boundary attributed to any given deity?

"There is gravity.", vs. "God is loving."

Gravity offers predictive qualities, and it's effect can be objectively measured and observed. Is any of "God's love" subject to similar qualifications/measures?

"Gravity causes objects to come down.", vs. "Loving beings care about their children."

Gravity is measured as a relative constant. Is there any measurable or observable constant regarding love and/or care of offspring? Is there any available data to suggest that love is perhaps both inconsistent and unpredictable?

"If I throw the ball up, gravity will cause it to come down.", vs. "We are God's children. Therefore, God cares about us."

Gravity seems to exert reliably repeatable aspects of predictability. Such manifestations/effects can be observed, measured, and objectively tested. How does one begin to measure (much less prospectively falsify) any [claimed] existent deity, much less hope to accurately account of it's (their) conscience, "feelings", or behavior? Does gravity evoke any apparent conscious aspects of anger, vengeance, or compassion? If you or I express disdain or unbelief regarding gravity, should we expect it to affect us differently from those that "believe" in gravity?

Hey. I'm a "skeptic", and I remain dubious about most claims of "authenticity", whether they be based upon preliminary evidences, or merely borne of wishful thinking/faith. But even most ardent skeptics are compelled to operate within realms of the tangible, the tactile, and the observable. Sure, there might be an entire universe contained within one atom of my thumb...but is that fanciful notion likely, or plausibly suggested by even one whit of empirically evaluative evidences?

If a person claims to be interactively conversant with their God on a daily basis...is that person delusional, crazy, or "divinely touched/inspired" in some way? Who is qualified to validate or discredit such a claim, or ascertain the "truth" of a claimant's sanity/status?? What concrete/objective evidence is to be presented as to verify or invalidate such a claim/state?

Kierkegaardian existentialism is reproved bunk, especially as even ole' Soren himself acknowledged that the individual might (perhaps) "know" a "God", but only in a "leap of faith" above/beyond either established creedal doctrines, or available empirical evidences.

Allow me to revise your syllogism to more comparable application/comparison.

If gravity exists, and if: "What goes up, must come down" is "true", then...

"If God exists, then His effect is universally applicable, and affects us all equally" should also be "true".

It appears that gravity is the measurable constant, but neither "belief", nor "faith" can ever (supposedly) exceed the measure or understanding resident within the individual himself (being that self-realization or divine "revelation" . This may lead to rationalized "beliefs" in literally thousands (millions?) of different deities, but gravity effects everyone equally...without bias, favor, or prejudice...whether they "believe" in gravity or not.

Gravity is utterly ambivalent to our existence; not some omnisciently existent entity that serves to define (or perpetrate) existence.

Can the cosmos exist without a god (or gods)?

Can a god (or gods) exist in the absence of any "believing" sentient beings?

As you are a self-acknowledged Christian, I advance this:

"Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.

Faith is the result of teaching (Rom. 10:14-17). Knowledge is an essential element in all faith, and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith (John 10:38; 1 John 2:3). Yet the two are distinguished in this respect, that faith includes in it assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the understanding. Assent to the truth is of the essence of faith, and the ultimate ground on which our assent to any revealed truth rests is the veracity of God.

This assent to or belief in the truth received upon the divine testimony has always associated with it a deep sense of sin, a distinct view of Christ, a consenting will, and a loving heart, together with a reliance on, a trusting in, or resting in Christ... Faith is necessary to our salvation (Mark 16:16), not because there is any merit in it, but simply because it is the sinner's taking the place assigned him by God, his falling in with what God is doing...

...The warrant or ground of faith is the divine testimony, not the reasonableness of what God says, but the simple fact that he says it. Faith rests immediately on, "Thus saith the Lord." But in order to this faith the veracity, sincerity, and truth of God must be owned and appreciated, together with his unchangeableness. God's word encourages and emboldens the sinner personally to transact with Christ as God's gift, to close with him, embrace him, give himself to Christ, and take Christ as his. That word comes with power, for it is the word of God who has revealed himself in his works, and especially in the cross. God is to be believed for his word's sake, but also for his name's sake.
"
--Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Or this thought, just for fun...

"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love."
--Albert Einstein


S2a,

I agree with you that certain types of evidence are more measurable and reliable than others.

We can all watch a bowling ball fall from a roof. We can film it, we can see it, we can measure the hole in the ground and so forth. A "vision of God" (keeping in mind this "vision" may be a delusion or it may be of something real) is personal-only, private, unmeasurable. A vision of God is a perception. As such it can reasonably be interpreted as "evidence" for God, even if it is shaky, and unpersuasive evidence. Or it may be interpreted another way.

I'm not sure if you mean this, but in your post you seem to implicitly equate "evidence that can be interpreted another way" as "no evidence." And again, you seem to equate "poor evidence" with "no evidence." This is just an impression I have, and perhaps I could not show you a sentence where you do this.

Finally, my impression is that in this post you make lots of important points. I also have the impression that you entirely missed the purpose of the post you quoted, which I believe was simply a demonsrtation of what logic is. I believe you two are talking past each other, because you're talking about two different things. I am afraid this conversation will become unproductive and frustrating as a result.

This thread isn't about the empirical properties of religion, but its logical properties.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Logic ITSELF is based on faith. So religion based on logic is still based on faith.

What people generall call "faith" is really just logically underdeveloped conclusions, but even the most logically developed conclusion has its basis in faith.

'fraid not.

Logic is based on a set of rules which must be epistemologically justified, which "faith" cannot withstand.

Why Logic/Reason/Science is not the same thing as "Faith"
 

Chevalier Violet

Active Member
'fraid not.

Logic is based on a set of rules which must be epistemologically justified, which "faith" cannot withstand.

fraid not.
Please be more careful with your "'fraid nots"... you may have a valid counterargument, but I find it is generally unwise to dismiss people's beliefs based on little words on a page, which are not always what they seem or immediately understood.

My impression is that I would change some of the wording in the post you are referring to. That said, it probably does agree with the thinking of philosophers of science on this issue.

Please keep in mind that according to philosophers of science, logic is an abstract discipline like math, and has very little to do with epistemology or empiricism. Rather, logic is a self-contained discipline, where all the terms are self-defined (as opposed to reality where we do not define the terms but create artificial boundaries).

According to PoS, logic applies to reality through translation, as does math.

So, no, formal logic has nothing to do with "epistemological justifications" of any sort.

As for faith, I would recommend that we stop using this word so loosely.

Faith really has three meanings. One is "a faith", that is a religion (usually organized and theistic), and having one means that one subscribes to that religion.

One can see faith as conflating certainty with belief. This is certainly the opinion of many atheists who have come across a particularly zealous Christian. Atheists denounce this sort of "faith" all the time, although there are other kinds and this tends to get confusing.

Finally, faith can mean quite simply a choice or a belief. For instance, we can talk about the wonderfulness of gravity, but to believe gravity exists having a sort of faith in it. Actually, making any type of generalization at all about the world is faith. For instance, if we eat five normal loaves of bread without harm, how do we know the sixth won't kill us? How many loaves of bread do we have to eat before we can be certain that one normal loaf of bread is safe. Infinitely many.

Most philosophers of science would see this as persuasive that any generalization or law is partially based on faith, because we are making generalizations out of a limited set of instances.

So really, pretty much everything we believe is "faith-based" (including everything I'm saying right now) and then there's the question of why we should see science as the best way to discover the truth rather than something else, which is also a question of choice/faith/belief but not certainty. Whatever you want to call it.

The point is, faith can withstand and resist onslaughts from another faith. You're probably doing it right now... and that's ok with me.

CV
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
So, no, formal logic has nothing to do with "epistemological justifications" of any sort.

Breathtaking.

This miserably pathetic counter amounts to, "I don't know anything about what I am saying, and neither do you."
 

Chevalier Violet

Active Member
Breathtaking.

This miserably pathetic counter amounts to, "I don't know anything about what I am saying, and neither do you."

I just reread that paragraph... it was jargonirrific, wasn't it? hehe.

If I weren't me, I would have no idea what I was saying.

Moral of the story, logic is a completely abstract discipline that deals with completely abstract relationships between abstract symbols. Logic in this sense is part math part language.

Logic is not empirical but abstract, therefore it cannot be shaped by reality. Just as an analogy, I can't think of any way we could discover something in the universe that would disprove something mathematical. Math is entirely abstract.

We could disprove one particular translation of math to reality (the theory of gravity actually equals...), but nothing purely mathematical, like 1+1=2, can ever be disproven in reality.

PoS view this as evidence that abstract domains have no empirical basis, but begin as thought exercises.

CV
 

Chevalier Violet

Active Member
"I don't know anything about what I am saying, and neither do you."

Also, I would agree that both of our knowledge is pretty limited. Personally, I am telling you my own best guesses and those of the philosophers of science I have read, but of course we are all so limited, and none of us knows what's true in the mysterious sea of life in front of us.

CV
 

Chevalier Violet

Active Member
I'm going to find something shiney to look at.

I like shiny things too (sorry I couldn't resist, I make spelling mistakes all the time). It's true, I do like shiny things. I'm serious. Me going to a museum is like, ooo that one is shiny. Ooo that one has a lot of colors. I am easily transfixed.

Also, I'm confused why are you apparently talking to yourself?
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Moral of the story, logic is a completely abstract discipline that deals with completely abstract relationships between abstract symbols. Logic in this sense is part math part language.

Though, if I'm not mistaken, I think both parts prove that Angellous is your Daddy.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Ok, after posting on another thread "Non-Trinitarians" the following:-



I had the following response from angellous:-


It brought an interesting topic up (which could not be debated there....) Can religion be logical? can you "choose" a religion and find the truth based on logic? I think it can. To me, If I cant find logic, I dont think its true!

What are you thoughts?

I believe religion has to be rational, or it cannot be anything other than superstition.

I say "rational", because logic is a process, but rationality is the source of the process.

God gave us to things: the ability to question just why the HELL we exist at all, and the rational mind to figure it out (at least partly).

Regards,
Scott
 

Chevalier Violet

Active Member
doppelgänger;835793 said:
Though, if I'm not mistaken, I think both parts prove that Angellous is your Daddy.

That would take some interesting axioms. I just got done proving that Angellous was my sonny. Wouldn't that make you my third cousin, one removed?

I hate geneology. Unless it's on colorful paper.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I just got done proving that Angellous was my sonny.

:eek:

(Johnny come lately with your own midget, no matter how stumpy...)

durningporch.jpg


Now I know how pappy felt...
 
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