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Can man be good without God?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Abram, Feb 23, 2006.

  1. Ormiston

    Ormiston Well-Known Member

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    A Jew or a Christian I'm sure. Would they not argue that they would have to change their ways in order to be good?
     
  2. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    That question is so complex. first you have to define what "good" is, then define what "God" is. aiyo.

    Personally, I think anyone can be good and attain moksha. its basic self achievement. Belief in God is just something to help you get there. I can be atheist and still achieve moksha. but thats different from being good.

    Though catholics believe that anyone can be good, but one must believe in Jesus in order to be saved. In hinduism, this is considered another path, seeking "salvation" in a holy person. all are equally valid.

    whatever floats your boat. everyone is unique and different.
     
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  3. ch'ang

    ch'ang artist in training

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    For the last time "good" is completely subjective.
     
  4. Ormiston

    Ormiston Well-Known Member

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    Where's Abram!? He started this. Maybe he should just decide what good is so we can get somewhere.
     
  5. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    If I'm not mistaken,

    Man could not be good without God.

    Man could not be bad without God.

    Man could not BE without God.
     
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  6. Ormiston

    Ormiston Well-Known Member

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    :clap
     
  7. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    I'm here. I can't define good, I'm a mere human like all you. I saw this questions and loved the way it spun my brain.

    If I were to call you a name, or take something from you, or the fact that people argue shows that there is law we all should know. If you say "it's not fair" you assume some sort of law that I should agree with. Then I may make an excuse for doing what I did that made it not fair. I broke some unseen law.

    Nor has it ever been good to betray a friend or be selfish. There is some unseen law we all try to follow. If you brake it your not good.

    To answer my own question. No, we could not be able to be good without God. He told us what is good. You can fool your self into thinking there is no law but as soon as I say some thing mean to you, you would go back on this by saying "don't call me that, thats not nice"

    Not only that, the very fact that we cannot even reason this question and it would go past a 1000 post with no conclusion also show that we humans don't have the ability to agree to a good. We end up saying, believe what you want and I'll believe in what I want. (Humanism) It turns up in chaos because our society will start to fall. No need for government or even rules just do what ever you want and try to be good? But my idea of good may differ. Turns in to a catch 22.

     
  8. Ormiston

    Ormiston Well-Known Member

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    Well, we seem to be doing alright with no more than half of all the people on the planet agreeing (barely) on God's laws. How do explain that? And catch 22's seem to be the norm around here and not the exception. :)
     
  9. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Abram I noticed you were a Christian. Christianity is about 2000 years old or maybe 6500 factoring in the OT. Now for God to be neccessary for good realize if you believe mankind is older than 6500 years old (if you don't than this is not applicable), than man was not good before his interaction with God. If you believe the Adam and Eve senerio forgive my example but if you think mankinds is older and man was evil because without God man cannot be good than you have the further paradox of wondering how an evil mankind could have made it for thousands of years.

    If mankind did make it without destroying one another than there was a code of morality, unity and the like in the absense of a God which brings up the equaly taxing question of why do we need a God if we can be moral without one?
     
  10. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    Just shows that even a little of God's law goes a long way. (thats the Jesus freak in me speaking;) ) But it's changing rapidly. America was founded on Christian virtues. Now if your Christian and try to bring a new law in or fight one it's tossed out because their "trying to push their religion"

    If you were alone on a darker street at night and a bunch of younger guys were walking your way, would you panic a little bit?
    What if you saw Bibles in their hands?

    I know it's a clumsy story. God has the best and most successfull law. Better then any we could create. People feel more safe in a place where God is in control.
     
  11. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    God is to our spirit as oxygen is to our bodies. We could not exist without it. And it permiates every cell of our body. We can do things that restrict flow of oxygen, just like we can restrict the flow of the Holy Spirit, and both can have undesireable consequences.
     
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  12. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    I'm one of the few that believe in a young earth. So I also believe in the flood that wiped out this problem. Man wants to be good inside(new age style) But untill you come to grips with the fact that we can't (redemption) you with always be looking for that one thing to fill your disires.

    Evil can co-exsist. Look at the Druids from long ago (the ones that hung the heads of their victims from their belt)

    Enhanced spirt wrote something I loved
     
  13. Revasser

    Revasser Terrible Dancer

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    I tend to agree. People don't need a set of external rules to be good and honourable, we were given/have developed the ability to discern right and wrong internally and develop personal ethics without having the entirety of someone else's moral code thrust upon us.

    We've already got the tools to do this. Belief in any particular deity or deities isn't a requirement for utilising those tools. Not all religions even teach that you must adhere to any external moral code, but that you should rely on your own ethics when making a decision. So I think man is absolutely capable of being good (or bad) with or without any god or gods.
     
  14. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    I didnt read the entire thread, but i think all people need is reason.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Of course he can! - just look at the Forum members who are not religious. They are just as moral and 'good' humanitarians as any of we 'believers'.;)
     
  16. enton

    enton Member

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    Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

    Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

    Man cannot be good without God. When one seemeth good to another man's eyes but in his heart he denies God, he is not good totally.:)
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    But, if they're good, doesn't that good come from God, whether they recognize it or not? According to Christian doctrine, God is sovereign. does an atheist's disbelief "trump" God's sovereignty? If we're good because of God, then they, also, are good because of God.
     
  18. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    Oh no! we have "Free will". You know, its where God wants us, but we dont have to want Him. But if we dont, we go to hell. Nice isnt it? So in order to go to heaven, we HAVE to believe in Him. But we'll be happy in the end. don't worry about it.
     
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