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can jinn possess and control human body

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by FearGod, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

    Messages:
    6,876
    Religion:
    Islam
    We know that jinn were created before humans and they are unseen but they got the ability to appear in many forms such as cats,lions,snakes,aliens,bacterias,viruses....etc

    a link about jinn and bacteria The Jinn

    my question is.

    Can the jinn possess and control the human body ?
     
  2. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Yea.

    I don't got time now to post stuff but go on Google and type in "Islamqa Jinn possession" and insha Allah you will get some links to that site and info.

    Also there's videos and things like that on Youtube that you can check out.

    I doubt they are bacteria b/c the Quran speaks about Jinn that have accepted Islam, unless some mutate bacteria can do that, I will stand by the evidences and majority opinion that they are 'beings' or i dunno how to put it..
     
  3. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    6,876
    Religion:
    Islam
    Thank you brother for the link which i found interesting.:)
     
  4. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    you're welcome
     
  5. Rational_Mind

    Rational_Mind Ahmadi Muslim

    Messages:
    1,296
    This topic is most interesting.

    The word Jinn is derived from Janna which means, it veiled, concealed, covered or protected him or it. Jinn means, such beings as remain aloof from the people concealing themselves; strangers; the main or chief part or body of mankind, etc. (Lane & Aqrab)

    So Jinn can apply to many things, it is not a word referring to a single being. In the Quran there are many uses of the word, if a single being viewpoint is taken then you will be very confused when reading verses of the Quran referring to Jinn. We should always take the viewpoint that is most sensible and respectable to the verses of the Holy Quran. As such Jinn can be bacteria/microorganisms, human beings who keep themselves hidden from society, strangers, angels, etc..


    Jinn can also refer to a group of Human Beings that keep themselves isolated from society. As such these can be Muslims or Non-Muslims alike that are among this Elite class. I am not sure if you are aware but most people know that there are group or groups made up of few people but control most of the world. Often Quran will also refer to these people.

    Among many verses here is one that clearly shows that a Man can belong to the Jinn: 72:6. If you click the link and see the translation word by word you can see it clearly talks about men from among the Jinn. How can you be from among the Jinn yet be a Man? Simply as I stated earlier it is not a being, here it is talking about influential and isolated people. There are other verses that speak of this group, some of which accepted Islam at the time of the Holy Prophet (saw) (46:29-30). These people referred to here were strangers (non-arabs), as Jinn by definition is also used for strangers.

    If Jinn were truly separate beings then there are many questions to answer, such as the fact that they don't fit into the Quran conceptually. Why are they not given specific instructions on Sharia, why are they often excluded from laws given to us. There is a HUGE gap.

    Now I will show you a verse that also again proves in clear words that they are not separate beings.

    ‘O company of Jinn and men! did not Messengers come to you from among yourselves who related to you My Signs and who warned you of the meeting of this your day?’ They will say, ‘We bear witness against ourselves.’ And the worldly life deceived them. And they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers. (6:130)

    Clearly the words, Messengers from among yourselves, show that the Jinn does not here refer to a separate creation but to only a section of human beings. The Holy Quran say that Moses and the Holy Prophet were sent as Messengers to Jinn also (46:29-32; 72:1-15). Yet you do not find a single instance in the Quran that speaks of any Messengers who are said to be raised from among the Jinn. Don't the proponents of the view that Jinn are a separate creation state that Quran is also been revealed for the Jinn, yet there is not a single mention of Messengers from among the Jinn?

    If you know urdu then also think of word Junoon. It is someone who has immense passion. Similarly the word can be used for a madman or someone who appears to be out of senses/control. I believe from this reference people have figured that madmen are possessed by Jinn, although I would be most interested in seeing how this concept can be shown from the Quran.

    You will note that when the Holy Quran refers to the elite class of men as Jinn it is generally in a bad sense, being applied to the wicked among them. You probably noticed today that there are many Jinn who lead men astray. E.g look at many powerful groups who are without an official name and so powerful that they put many astray and cause trouble in the world, collect most of the World's wealth.

    See how accurate and beautiful the Quran is?

    So your question of possession is answered in itself by the fact that they are not even something as confusing as people have taken them to be. You should not take my word for it, read the Quran and pray to Allah for guidance whenever you are confused about a verse. I would ask you to see if you can get someone to show you anywhere in the Quran where possession by the Jinn is spoken of, and where they get that idea, and who taught them how to try and remove these so called Jinn.

    If you are confused about specific verses in regards to Jinn or anything else I would humbly request you to give this tafseer a chance and see if it truly guides you.
     
  6. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Assalaamu Alaykum,

    I don't know Arabic but as far as I know from the English translation of the meaning, "Jinn" is usually referred to the actual creations called "Jinn" that were created from a smokeless flame. Maybe the word was applied to something that is hidden but we should look at the context to see which one it is and how is the subject being spoken about.

    For me, 72:6 strengthens the fact that us and jinn are different creatures. The Sahih intl translation of the meaning says this:

    {And there were men from mankind who sought refuge in men from the jinn, so they [only] increased them in burden.}
    [ 27:6 ]

    There is a distinction b/w men from mankind and men from jinn so that is why I see it as a proof for the argument that we are different creatures. Cause for me it indicates 'males' specifically what is meant by men from humans and from jinn and not just a different tribe or status of humans.

    Also I know the "Elite class" was just an example but those people are evil and as we read further in that Surah one verse says there are righteous jinn as well:

    {And among us are the righteous, and among us are [others] not so; we were [of] divided ways}
    [ 72:11 ]

    And for the verses in Surah 46, I don't think they are proof against jinn and humans being different creatures b/c jinn are able to take shape of humans as we know from the Sunnah. But as far as I can see, the verses don't describe them as humans anyway.


    Tafsir ibn Kathir says:

    {This Ayah (9:122) has been used as evidence that the
    Jinns have warners from among themselves, but
    no Messengers. There is no doubt that Allah did
    not send Messengers from among the Jinns,
    because He says,

    And We did not send before you as Messengers
    any but men, to whom We revealed from among
    the people of cities. (12:109)
    And Allah says,

    And We never sent before you any of the
    Messengers but verily they ate food and walked in
    the markets. (25:20)
    And He says about Ibrahim Al-Khalil, upon him
    be peace,

    ...And We placed in his descendants Prophethood
    and Scripture. (29:27)
    Thus, every Prophet whom Allah sent after
    Ibrahim was from his offspring and progeny.
    As for Allah's saying in Surah Al-An`am,

    O company of Jinns and human beings! Did there
    not come to you Messengers from among you?
    (6:130)
    It only applies to the two kinds collectively, but
    specifically pertains to just one of them, which is
    the human.

    This is like Allah's saying,

    From both of them (salty and fresh waters)
    emerge pearl and Marjan. (55:22)
    Although He said "both of them'' this applies to
    only one of the two types of water (the salty
    water). }


    and


    {Allah will chastise the disbelieving Jinns and humans on the Day
    of Resurrection, when He asks them, while having better
    knowledge, if the Messengers delivered His Messages to them,

    "O you assembly of Jinn and humans! Did not there
    come to you Messengers from among you,''
    We should note here that the Messengers are from
    among mankind only, not vice versa, as Mujahid, Ibn216
    Jurayj and others from the Imams of Salaf and later
    generations have stated. The proof for this is that Allah
    said,

    Verily, We have sent the revelation to you as We
    sent the revelation to Nuh and the Prophets after
    him. (4:163) until,

    Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of
    warning in order that mankind should have no
    plea against Allah after the (coming of)
    Messengers. (4:165)
    Allah said, concerning the Prophet Ibrahim,

    And We ordained among his offspring
    Prophethood and the Book. (29: 27),
    thus sending the Prophethood and the Book exclusively
    through the offspring of the Prophet Ibrahim. No one has
    claimed that there were Prophets from among the Jinns
    before the time of Ibrahim, but not after that.
    Allah said,

    And We never sent before you any of the
    Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked
    in the markets. (25:20)

    And We sent not before you any but men unto
    whom We revealed, from among the people of
    townships. (12:109) 217
    Therefore, concerning Prophethood, the Jinns follow
    mankind in this regard and this is why Allah said about
    them,

    And (remember) when We sent towards you a
    group of the Jinn, listening to the Qur'an. When
    they stood in the presence thereof, they said:
    "Listen in silence!" And when it was finished, they
    returned to their people, as warners. They said:
    "O our people! Verily, we have heard a Book sent
    down after Musa, confirming what came before it,
    it guides to the truth and to the straight way. O
    our people! Respond to Allah's caller, and believe
    in him. He (Allah) will forgive you your sins, and
    will save you from a painful torment (i.e. Hellfire). And whosoever does not respond to Allah's
    caller, he cannot escape on earth, and there will
    be no helpers for him besides Allah. Those are in
    manifest error. (46:29-32) }

    Basically to summarize, the jinn followed/follow the human messengers too. As verse 21:107 states:

    {And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds ('alamin).}

    Much of it is gotten from the Sunnah of rasoolullah (sallAllahu alayhis wassalaam) including how to remove them and things of that nature. I think it is called 'ruqyah' or something like that which is getting rid of magic cast on you by reciting Quran especially Surat Al-Fatihah and other verses. Also used for weakening the jinn when they possess people and getting them out.
     
  7. Rational_Mind

    Rational_Mind Ahmadi Muslim

    Messages:
    1,296
    I linked my proof from saheeh international translation word by word. You cannot change the verse of the Quran. Generally i dont like there translation because they insert words into it so to enforce their own meanings. But Quran never let's them get away, they get caught at other verses using the same words. More over are you saying that the verses stating Moses (as) and Muhammad (saw) were sent to Jinn means them in Human form because of what reason? Moreover it clearly says from among yourselves.You are once again stuck. Quran will only give you one way out. Also please look up Jinn in Arabic Lexcon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  8. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Assalaamu Alaykum,

    I did not change the verse...I know you posted link to sahih intl, I just posted the whole verse b/c I thought you were missing the "mankind" and "jinn" distinction in the verse since you were trying to prove they were the same but to me the verse does exactly the opposite.*

    No, I was saying that it is possible that they can turn to the shape of humans and listen to the message. They don't have to ofcourse, cause they can see and hear us even in their normal form, I was just stating one possibility.

    I don't believe I was/am stuck at all. 6:130 only strengthens my point ad it too distinguishes between mankind and jinn!

    And it does say amongst yourselves as you are pointing out. That is referring to the whole group of mankind and jinn ad it says in beginning b/c messengers were only sent from humans to both mankind and jinn b/c they are on earth n everything as well but we cannot see them, though they can see + hear us, even change into human form as I said above.

    What are your beliefs on iblees, like what kind of creature do you believe he is. The Quran says he is a jinn and Jinn are created from a smokeless flame while humans were created out of clay/mud/dirt, water, angels created out of light, etc.

    So what is your interpretation on what iblees is, as - from my understanding - you don't believe in jinn as separate creatures?

    Wassalaam.
     
  9. Rational_Mind

    Rational_Mind Ahmadi Muslim

    Messages:
    1,296
    asalamo alikum

    I only was stating that often Saheeh translators do some injustice in translation, you did not do anything wrong. How familiar are you with the Holy Quran, if you have read the verses warning people about putting trust in these powerful groups. On the day of judgement they will compain that these leaders we followed led us astray. So here you have the answer to that verse, there are really two groups in society, Jinn and common man. They are both human beings. Now i speak of Jinn in one sense, the word is used in other senses as well.

    I am using a phone when typing, I will get back on Iblees later.

    Waliakumasalam
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  10. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Wa 'alaykum salaam,

    I think I am misunderstanding you here. Are you talking about 6:30? Cause every translation I checked right now says the same "jinn and mankind/humankind", making a distinction b/w the two, not only the translation of "Sahih intl" which was done by a woman named Umm Muhammad I think.

    I dunno Arabic but I guess you can use the word jinn for some humans as well since it means something like "hidden from sight" but I think in the Quran it is only used for the actual creatures created out of a smokeless flame b/c using it for something else like humans would be confusing b/c it would make us think humans were created out of a smokeless flame as well when that is not the case. Also it always makes a distinction b/w humans and jinn and I think they were named so b/c we cannot see them.


    Ok,

    Wassalaam.
     
  11. Rational_Mind

    Rational_Mind Ahmadi Muslim

    Messages:
    1,296
    Asalamo Alaikum

    If we look carefully at verse 6:130

    Sahih International
    "O company of jinn and mankind, did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you My verses and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves"; and the worldly life had deluded them, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.

    Now at 3:164

    Sahih International
    Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error.

    Now at 9:128

    Sahih International
    There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you and to the believers is kind and merciful.

    How should we reconcile these verses?

    I think you understand the first portion of my argument. That the Holy Prophet (saw) was a human being and was sent from among ourselves (as per verses above). So those Jinn that the Holy Prophet (saw) brought his message to were only humans, as he was a messenger from among them.

    If we want to say that a certain interpretation of some verses susceptible to interpretation is incorrect then we would have to find clear verses that contradict. I would ask you to see if your Imam can guide you and show you why he believes that Jinn are separate beings and there is no contradiction with the verses above. I would be open to having a look at this to see why people believe such.

    I think that one barrier that you can pass is in understanding that Jinn can also refer to the first life forms created from fire (as mentioned in OP link). What else would you call something that is not visible to the naked eye, something that is hidden.

    That is clear revelation of the unknown by Allah Subanawatallah. How perfect is radiation described as smokeless fire. This is clearly in line with scientific view. Similarly the Holy Prophet (saw) warned people not to use bones and dung to wipe themselves as Jinn feed on it. Who would have possibly known this? He knew there was something not visible to the naked eye that was eating at it. What better Arabic word could he have possibly used?

    You can interpet verses, that are susceptible to different interpretations, to hold many meanings that can all be correct as long as they do not contradict with other verses that are clear in meaning. This is the standard set by the Quran itself and described by the Holy Prophet (saw). This trait of the Quran makes it verses unmatched to ones authored by man. We cannot do such a job, it is impossible, to cover so many things in so little pages yet authored such that it prevents one to take incorrect meanings. So the verse about their creation from fire can be taken, from amongst other meaning, to also mean that Jinn as in those humans who were of a fierce nature and arrogant. While mankind, as in humans who turned towards Allah (swt), were not arrogant and mouldable like clay. They could be moulded into a great character, while arrogant people are fiery and outright reject Prophets of Allah (swt).

    Again, I would repeat not to think that the word encompasses only one meaning of those secluded human beings, it can be anything that falls into the definition of concealed things. As such Angels are Jinn. Please note that Angels may appear as visions of Human form that bring messages, this does not mean they actually physically turned into Human form and came.

    For a better understanding of creation from fire please read some commentary here.

    Remember that Allah does not burden a soul beyond its capacity. If Jinn could possess people then at times we would have no choice, how do you know that the good you do is not some righteous Jinn, or the bad you do some Jinn who has gone astray. Allah (swt) says that evil can only give you suggestions, they cannot enforce anything upon you. So you are always responsible for your deeds. You have a choice. So this entire concept of possession by some other being is foreign and against the Quran.

    Always remember that hidaya only and only comes from Allah. So read prayer and ask Allat (swt) to increase your knowledge and guide you. In prayers ask from your heart. Allah (swt) will surely guide the sincere in their quest. Please don't take anyones words for it, look yourself, and ask Allah (swt) for guidance.

    ‘O my Lord increase my knowledge’ (20:114)

    Walaikum Asalam
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  12. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Wa alaykum salaam,

    The prophets and messengers were all humans, as said before, but they came for both mankind and jinn. Jinn can be believers as well, and a whole bunch of other religions too.

    {The jinn eat and drink. Ibn Mas’ood said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Someone from among the jinn called me, and I went with him and recited Qur’aan for them.’ He took us and showed us the traces of where they had been and the traces of their fires. They asked him for food and he said, ‘You can have every bone on which the name of Allaah has been mentioned that comes into your possession, as meat, and all the droppings as food for your animals.’ The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘So do not use [these things] for cleaning yourselves [after relieving oneself], for they are the food and provision of your brothers.’” (Reported by Muslim, 450). According to another report: “A delegation of jinn from Naseebeen came to me, and what good jinn they are! They asked me for food and I prayed to Allaah for them, so that they would not pass by bones or droppings, but they would find food on them.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3571). The believing jinn may eat any bone on which the name of Allaah has been mentioned, because the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not permit them to have anything on which Allaah’s name has not been mentioned – those are for the kuffaar among the jinn.}

    Islam Question and Answer - The world of the Jinn

    I underlined the part that you were talking about. It says that they have their own animals which feed on dung. I'm not sure how you're interpreting it here what they are humans or some kind of bacteria or something else, But i do not think anyone or anything such as humans or bacteria feed their animals dung...

    I have to disagree with the underlined portion here. I know that you said this is one possible interpretation but I do not think it is correct because there are even "Jinn" who accepted the prophets and did not reject them and who are righteous and there are many of "those created out of clay" that rejected the messengers.


    I haven't checked this out, but do you know of any instance in Quran where a man or angel or something like that was called a jinn? And I don't mean just saying 'Jinn' and then being interpreted as a human but explicitly saying like "John, the human, was a jinn" or something like that.

    And I'm pretty sure that nothing was called "a jinn" but if it was something hidden then it might come from the root word but not actually called "a Jinn". Lol, this prolly sounds alil confusing.


    Also, some verses explicitly state:

    {He created man from clay like [that of] pottery.
    And He created the jinn from a smokeless flame of fire.}
    [ Surat Ar-Rahman/55, vs. 14-15 ]

    So we cannot deny the most obvious interpretation which is what it says, that man was created out of one thing and jinn out of another. Maybe from there you can go say that Jinn are 'fiery' by nature and man is more 'mould-able" but we cannot skip the base, explicit meaning. If we had to choose b/w the two than we would have to take the first one b/c that is what the verse says explicitly that one was actually "created" from clay and other from fire.

    Also, when we grasp this, that they are another totally different creature, things start falling into place and making more sense. Such as these verses:

    {And gathered for Solomon were his soldiers of the jinn and men and birds, and they were [marching] in rows.}
    [ Surat An-Naml/27, v. 17 ]


    {[Solomon] said, "O assembly [of jinn], which of you will bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

    A powerful one from among the jinn said, "I will bring it to you before you rise from your place, and indeed, I am for this [task] strong and trustworthy."

    Said one who had knowledge from the Scripture, "I will bring it to you before your glance returns to you." And when [Solomon] saw it placed before him, he said, "This is from the favor of my Lord to test me whether I will be grateful or ungrateful. And whoever is grateful - his gratitude is only for [the benefit of] himself. And whoever is ungrateful - then indeed, my Lord is Free of need and Generous."}
    [ Surat An-Naml/27, vs. 38-40 ]


    It is impossible for any human in the world to move at such speeds and bring a throne from such a distance, back to where he was.


    I'll prolly check it out later.

    It is only the shayateen or devils among the jinn that possess people.

    Also:

    {Every individual among the sons of Aadam has a jinn who has been appointed to be his constant companion (qareen). Ibn Mas’ood said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘There is not one of you who does not have a jinn appointed to be his constant companion.’ They said, ‘And you too, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He said, ‘Me too, but Allaah has helped me and he has submitted, so that he only helps me to do good.’” (Reported by Muslim, 2814). Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Muslim (17/175): “‘He has submitted’ … he became a believing Muslim. This is the apparent meaning. Al-Qaadi said: Know that the ummah is agreed upon the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was protected from Shaytaan, physically and mentally, and with regard to his speech. This hadeeth contains a reference to the warning against the fitnah (temptation, trial) and whispers of the qareen (constant companion from among the jinn). We know that he is with us so we should beware of him as much as possible.”}

    Islam Question and Answer - The world of the Jinn


    Also:

    {Secondly:

    Possession is a kind of sickness. If a person who has this sickness is rational, then he has the choice and he will be brought to account for his words and actions. But if this sickness has overwhelmed him to the point that he has lost his mind and free will, then he is like one who is insane and is not accountable. Hence in Arabic the word mass (possession) is used to refer to junoon (insanity). See Lisaan al-‘Arab (6/217). But if he commits an act of aggression against another when he is insane and destroys his property, for example, then he must pay compensation for that.

    See: Zaad al-Ma’aad (4/66-71)

    It says in al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (16/106):

    The fuqaha’ are unanimously agreed that insanity is like unconsciousness and sleep, rather it is more severe in the loss of free will, and it makes whatever he says invalid. For the one who is sleeping, all his verbal statements, such as divorce, becoming Muslim, turning apostate, selling, buying, etc, are invalid. So it is more appropriate that such statements be invalid in the case of insanity, because the insane person has no power of reasoning or discernment. They quoted as evidence for that the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “The Pen has been raised from three: the sleeper until he awakens, the child until he reaches maturity and the insane person until he comes back to his senses.” Narrated by the authors of Sunan with a saheeh isnaad. The same applies to all verbal statements because of the potential for harm. End quote.
    }

    Islam Question and Answer - Jinn possession and the rulings on jinn possession

    (BTW I took out some not needed parts of your reply cuz of char limit)
     
  13. Rational_Mind

    Rational_Mind Ahmadi Muslim

    Messages:
    1,296
    Asalamo Alikum

    This is not an easy concept to understand. Jinn that is most likely referred to by the Holy Prophet are Angels who record your deeds. Also the Jinn as in Angels who used to protect him. Moreover I hope that the Scholars you may hold honor for would be able to help you in seeing from the Quran that what I am saying is wrong. You may show me anyone who said such and such, but if it contradicts the Quran then it is of no value to me. If Jinn could possess people then the Quran would have mentioned that at least even once, but you will not find a single instance of this fairy tale. Moreover, the Jinn that are described as being part of Prophet Solomon (as) soldiers are a portion of the various portions of his military. So if you think with common sense then you would know who exactly those Jinn were. I would invite you to read the commentary I linked out when you find time for all verses you are confused about. If it is within human reasoning and more honorable and sensible to the nature of Allah (swt) and the Holy Prophet (saw) then we should accept it. Again, we must not take contradictions. As I have pointed out, the verses above leave no option but to accept that the Jinn as human beings where it is mentioned that the Holy Prophet (saw) conveyed Allah (swt) message to them. If you don't then you have a big problem explaining the verses.

    I agree that you can say that a person who lost his senses is under Junoon. But saying possessed by another being with a soul has no basis whatsoever in the Quran. It can be called a sickness and that is where it ends. No stories about controlling Jinn and preaching Jinn as in other beings is true. That are fantasies that can never be replicated when these people are called upon.

    Creation from Clay

    This verse would appear as 30:20 where the first verse Bismillah is not numbered. You may now see that you being created from the same leaves you many questions to wonder. You must avoid contradiction in the literal meanings.

    Wa Laikum Asalam
     
  14. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Wa alaykum salaam,

    I do not see any contradiction in believing that Jinn are not humans or Angels but I do see a contradiction that Jinn are humans and angels. As Allah (Azza wa Jal) makes a distinctions multiple times b/w the jinn and mankind and also that mankind was created from clay, jinn from fire, angels from light, so saying on creature is the other seems like a contradiction to me.

    Also the prophet Solomon (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) having jinn under his control by the will of Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) bringing the thrown of sheba from the palace and back to where prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) was. These are the types of things that the Sunnah of rasoolullah (sallAllahu alayhis wassalaam) mentions that Jinn (as separate beings) have the power to do and that there are many categories of them. Similarly, other ahadeeth mention that they can take the shape of humans, dogs, birds, snakes, etc. I do not think that it would make sense to say humans can take the shape of humans or dogs or the other things.

    Also, they cannot be angels b/c they have free will and are tested just as we are b/c as the Quran says, messengers were sent to them and some believe while other don't. While angels were created only to do good and all of them believe.

    The Quran doesn't mention every single thing, that doesn't mean the things not mentioned are false. That is why we have the Sunnah of prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu alayhis wassalaam) as well. Some scholars interpret 2:275 to mean that the people who consume Riba will be resurrected like those who are driven to insanity by shaytan and possessed by one too.

    30:20 is about humans being originally created from dust - as prophet Adam (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was and then his children scattering all over the world, in different races and tribes, etc. Allah (Azza wa Jal) explains the rest of the humans' formation and creation in the verses which speak about embryology.

    Also, the creation of nabi 'Isa (alayhis salaam) is similar to the creation of nabi Adam (alayhis salaam) b/c of Allah (Azza wa Jal) created them both by saying "Be". Since they were unique cases and miracle creations, not through normal reproduction as we were so that is how they why/how their cases are similar.


    Wassalaam.
     
  15. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

    Messages:
    6,876
    Religion:
    Islam
    Al Salam Alaikum brother,

    What you have mentioned is right,but i noticed that all of them will be punished the same,
    all of disbelievers seems to have similar skin.(jinn & human)

    We shall soon cast into Fire all those who deny Our Messages. As often as their skins are burnt up We will replace
    them with other (new) skins that they may (continually) taste (agony of) punishment. Surely, Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise. (4:56)
     
  16. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Wa alaykum salaam,

    I would think that it doesn't necessarily mean they have similar skin as us but some type of "skin" that can be burnt and injured.

    I hope you understand what i'm trying to say here... For example, they have bodies but that doesn't mean that it is like our body, y'kno?

    And Allah (Azza wa Jal) knows best.

    Wassalaam.
     
  17. Rational_Mind

    Rational_Mind Ahmadi Muslim

    Messages:
    1,296
    Asalamo Alaikum

    I would hope that viewpoints of such major topics root from the Quran. I can only hope that more effort is put in research and then Allah (swt) can guide thoose who make a motion for help. Until stuff is shown from the Quran it will remain fairytales. All man is said to be created as such. Yet we all know how we are created. If Adam (as) was created without mother and father and was the first man then i wonder who he was a Khalifa to. In any case, i hope you dont take your elders word for it. Search and let Allah guide you. I have put effort to understand this view but whenever i speak of the Quran people leave it and start some fictional stories.

    Walaikum Asalam.
     
  18. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Wa alaykum salaam,

    I do not agree that if something is not shown in the Quran then it is a fairytale. Surely the Sunnah of the prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) mentioned something that the Quran did not, over a period 23 years when the Sunnah was being carried out 24/7 and the Quran was at certain periods. Also, what the prophet (peace be upon him) spoke was also basically similar to revelation in that it is some knowledge and wisdom which Allah (Azza wa Jal) bestowed on his prophet (peace be upon him) so that he can sort out day-to-day issues of the people in law and things of that nature.

    Also, things like how to pray and all specific details of Hajj are found in the Sunnah. I doubt that prayer in the form that the prophet (peace be upon him) did was a fairytale even though it's not found in the Quran.

    What verse are you referring to for Adam (alayhis salaam)?

    I don't really have any "elders", I just look at Quran, Sunnah, understanding of the companions (may Allah be pleased with them), explanations of the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and explanations of the many great Imams and scholars of the Ummah, sometimes including contemporary scholars as well. As Allah (azza wa jal) said in the Quran to follow Him and His messenger and those in authority among us but if we disagree over something, we should return back to Allah and His messenger. Now the way for us to do that is to follow the righteous scholars and Quran and Sunnah.

    Wassalaam
     
  19. Rational_Mind

    Rational_Mind Ahmadi Muslim

    Messages:
    1,296
    AOA
    If the Quran mentions the Jinn but never mentions these fairytales that go against it then I would have to believe they are fairy tales. The Holy Prophet (saw) was sent to the Jinn and Mankind, he was also from among them. So this leaves only one option for this particular reference of Jinn who Holy Prophet (saw) brought his message to. Hence proving that Jinn does not have to be a be all and end all meaning of just a seperate being as per the Quran. Why are ther no specific injuctions made for Jinn in the Quran. If they were such mysterious beings they would have many laws specific to them. Moreover, why dont they manifest themselves today, where were they when The Holy Prophet was waged war against. Why did not Allah (swt) provide them for The Holy Prophet (saw) to command like did Solomon (as).

    Please show me the Hadith where these tales come from. Most of not all major concepts are based /stem / root in the Quran. You use the Sunnah to help understand the Quran, after all The Holy Prophet (saw) was a personification if the Quran. Hadith is also supplementary. Making such conclusions should stem from the Quran and be supported by Sunnah and Hadith. Many aspects of Prayer and Hajj are in the.Quran. On the contrary, these fairy tales are not.

    Snakes btw are called Jinn because the like to hide in crevices. I hope you pray for Guidance and then put in full efforts.

    WAS
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  20. LaaIlahaIllAllah

    LaaIlahaIllAllah Member

    Messages:
    218
    Wa alaykum assalaam,

    Many aspects of prayer and Hajj are in the Quran but not the details of how to perform them, so how do we know if the way Muslims are doing it now is a fairytale or not? I think the only thing from the Quran that we get about the prayer is the positions - standing, bowing, prostrating. It doesn't mention how many cycles for each prayer, doesn't mention which surahs we should recite or how many or if we should recite Surat Al-Fatiha before the other ones, etc. None of these things are mentioned but no Muslim can say that it's a fairytale.

    The Quran tells us the Jinn and mankind, the jinn and mankind, the jinn and mankind..... It is pretty clear that they are not humans. Also, like those verse relating to prophet Solomon (alayhis salaam), there were jinn, men, and birds. Three different types of creatures. Also the Jinn performed amazing feats which no man could do, like that throne incident.

    Also, Quran tells us man was created from clay/dust/earth, angels from light, and jinn from a smokeless flame. Three different types of creatures again. You can interpret this other ways as you said about the fiery thing too but we cannot ignore the explicit and literal meaning, especially when the hadiths of the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), the sahaba (may Allah be pleased with them), and the next generations of Muslims and great scholars also interpreted the literal way. It would make no sense to deny this and make up some kind of innovation that was unheard of.

    Furthermore, Allah (Azza wa Jal) does what He wills with His different messengers and prophets. Prophet Solomon (alayhis salaam) received a kingdom that nobody on earth will ever have, him and prophet David (alayhis salaam) both received much wisdom and knowledge from Allah (Azza wa Jal).

    Also, as you saw from that verse, it was only a group of Jinn - I think the word there meant 3-9 of them - that accepted Islam b/c of hearing the recitation of the prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu alayhis wassalaam).

    Plus, Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) gave them better help which were the angels.

    Yes, many things stem from the Quran and I think that the concept of jinn being different creatures is a well established one in the Quran as I have written above.
    The hadeeth said that the Jinn can change forms into snakes (of many things), so it's not just about snakes hiding in crevices. I will try to them and post them later, insha Allah.

    wassalaam.
     
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