1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Can Jews Accept King David as Messiah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by wizanda, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,088
    Ratings:
    +607
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    It has 3 persons, David who tells it, Yahweh and Lord. :)
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,734
    Ratings:
    +185
    Zechariah 12:8 is with respect to the likes of the 6 day war of 1967, whereas the "the feeble" will be "like David", and throw back their "enemies", to make them like "whirling dust" (Psalms 83:1-18).
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,446
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    David's Lord is YHVH... Thus that would make David's Psalms 110:1 YHVH speaking to YHVH. :confused:
    Psalms 89's context, suggest God will select David from out of mankind to be his Right Arm.

    Isaiah 52:13-15 suggests similar, that from out of mankind the Lord's vessel (Isaiah 52:10-12) is put into the anointed one.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,734
    Ratings:
    +185
    Psalm 89:21, is with respect to "my right arm also will strengthen him." (David my servant). The suggestion will be that David will be "My hand".
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,734
    Ratings:
    +185
    What Psalms 110:1 says is "The LORD says to my Lord". Which is to say David has a Lord, to whom the LORD speaks. It is David's Lord, who will "rule in the midst of your enemies" (Psalms 110:2). Who is the "Lord" of David, as who is the "prince" who helped Daniel ? (Daniel 10:13)
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  6. user4578

    user4578 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2016
    Messages:
    78
    Ratings:
    +21
  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,416
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    It's not clear how you've made that determination here. It seems like you're forcing that interpretation by capitalizing the L in lord for no reason other than to support your opinion.

    Let's say that were true. Can G-d only select one person to be His right arm? Maybe David in his time and David's progeny would be like his father in his time.[/quote]
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,446
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    God shall put his spirit into everyone in the age to come.... So it is possible.
    By YHVH speaking to Adoni, and you said that it is David's Adoni; which if we search the Psalms would make that YHVH.

    Personally would say YHVH is addressing someone; thus David is the only being he could be saying sit at my right.

    Which is why then David returns as an Elohim (Divine Being) in Zechariah 12:8.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  9. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,416
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    I think you are confusing adoni with Ado-nai. Adoni means "my master", "my lord". anyone who David may have held in esteem, might be referred to that way. Abraham greets the three men as "my masters" even though he'd never met them before.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,446
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Thus show a logical conclusion of those parameters; who could David have held in esteem, that YHVH would be addressing to sit at his right?

    Personally think it is more logical to equate David is writing the Psalm; that YHVH is saying to him, he will make him the vessel of the Messiah in future generations.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  11. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,416
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    It's probably not that logical to say that David was referring to himself as "my lord". That wouldn't make a lot of sense. One option is that David was referring to his Patriarch, Abraham, whom G-d supported in battle against the kings of Gen. 14.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  12. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,586
    Ratings:
    +605
    Religion:
    None
    True. They see Him as a false prophet.
    They wanted a King and conqueror.
    But... Zechariah spoke twice of the suffering Messiah
    returning as King and conqueror. And the Jews would
    mourn for "him they pierced."
     
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,446
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Why would YHVH be addressing a Patriarch; YHVH has said he will make David the Messiah in Psalms 89:19-21, and in Psalms 18:50, Psalms 132:10-17 from out of the Seed of David a Branch will Bud, and be the Messiah.
    YHVH is the one speaking, thus it isn't illogical for YHVH to call David "my master", and to be referring to the Holy One of Israel, which shall come out of Zion.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,416
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    I'm not sure you're clear on who is saying what. Going with the assumption that David wrote the Psalm:

    David says, "G-d said to my (ie. David's) lord, 'sit to My (ie. G-d's) right...'".
    It's David recording what G-d said to his (David's) lord. Psalm 110 is not a Messianic prophecy, so whether or not David is the Messiah is irrelevant to Psalm 110.
    Psalm 89:19-21 describes G-d's choosing David to be king. Psalm 18:50 confirms that choice. And Psalm 132-10-17 again confirms that choice as well as reiterates G-d's selection of David as the forefather of the Messiah.

    Don't confuse the Hebrew word mashiach with the English word Messiah. A mashiach is someone who was appointed to a position or task. In the Tanach, the kings were appointed to their kingship through an oil-anointing ceremony. King Saul is just as much a mashiach as is David (see 1 Sam. 10:1, 1 Sam. 12:3,5). If I recall correctly, by Jewish Law the first of a royal dynasty is supposed to be anointed with this oil. That means Saul, David and Jeroboam were all anointed with oil and are all mashiach. Because this was a ritual for such an important position, the word mashiach is also a loanword to any appointment. So Cyrus is called G-d's mashiach -even though we don't know what rituals were involved in the Persian empire for raising him to his position- because G-d appointed him to start the rebuilding of the Temple. So when the verses you quoted use the word mashiach, we don't assume the meaning is Messiah - and in the vast majority of cases, it doesn't refer to him.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,724
    Ratings:
    +27,775
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    Except it doesn't.

    I'd love to know why Christians seem to think that every Jew on the planet can somehow miss these really-really-really obvious prophecies when they study their holy books day and night, but Christians, who mostly don't even read Hebrew, think they know better? It sounds more like the Christians are trying to retrofit their man into prophecies that have nothing to do with him, rather than an entire nation of people just have serious reading comprehension problems.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  16. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,416
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    King, yes. That's what it says. Conqueror, no.

    No he didn't. Go ahead and take a look.

    Except it doesn't say "him" in the verse, and the "they" isn't the Jewish people. Other then that, you're right.
     
  17. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,586
    Ratings:
    +605
    Religion:
    None
    It was Jacob, ca 2000 BC who said there will be a nation of the Jews but it was
    last only till the coming of the Messiah. Jacob was one of many who proclaimed
    this - Daniel stated that the temple will stand until the Messiah is cut off for his
    people. And Isaiah said the Jews would come back a "second time" when in fact
    they hadn't been exiled the first time. Jesus said the Jews would not know the
    day of their visitation and the Gentiles would trample Jerusalem until the Gentile's
    time was fulfilled.
    These Jews had nearly 2,000 of exile, slavery, pogroms and holocaust, to study
    their bibles. And for the most part the simple message of the Old Testament was
    that blessing and cursing was symbolized by land and freedom. And the Jews
    were denied this.

    This is what Zechariah wrote of the Redeemer and King of Israel.

    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
    See, your King comes to you, righteous and victorious, gentle and riding on a
    donkey,
    on a colt, the foal of a donkey. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
    and the horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of war will be broken. Then He will
    proclaim peace to the nations; His dominion will extend from sea to sea, and from
    the Euphrates to the ends of the earth.…

    And

    the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. “And in
    that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of
    grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they
    will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him
    like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.



     
    #37 PruePhillip, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  18. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,724
    Ratings:
    +27,775
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    I asked you why, if these so-called Jesus prophecies are so obvious, don't any of the Jews, to whom the scripture belongs, see them? Why isn't every Yeshiva boy leaping from his seat in astonishment? Why is that only the people who already believe in Jesus see him there?
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,586
    Ratings:
    +605
    Religion:
    None
    It's a seriously Good Question. IMO it's because the Jews didn't want a
    Redeemer but a King. In reading how the Jews reacted to Jesus you
    get an idea what their ancestors thought of a Redeemer.
    But the Jews embraced the Old Testament though these documents
    were uniformly critical of them. And how the bible survived the generations
    was because of the historic element, IMO.
    Most authors of the bible wrote of the Redeemer and Messiah. He was as
    meek as Moses, he would end Jacob's nation, David saw his hands and
    feet pierced, Isaiah saw him as despised and rejected, Daniel said he
    could come but be "cut off" for his people, Job saw him as the suffering
    Redeemer etc.. It seems the Jews did not relate to this.
    Zechariah gives us the TWO MESSIAHS together, as opposed to some
    prophecies of Redeemer and some as King. Zechariah was murdered
    by the Pharisees.
     
  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,446
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Because everyone is under the Curse of Moses, which has Blinded many to seeing (Deuteronomy 28:28-29, Zechariah 12:4), where they've rejected the Rock of their Salvation (Yeshua - Deuteronomy 32:15).

    Plus because Rabbinic Judaism has continued preaching they have peace (Deuteronomy 29:19-25), instead of accept the Curse by Moses they're about to be removed by Fire in one day.

    Zechariah 5 states a time of wickedness where people will not recognize the Curse, and thus it makes it easier to remove all the hypocrites who've rejected God (El - Deuteronomy 32:17-18).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
Loading...