Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

[iam1me]

St Paul's verses are simply talking about obedience to God. Adam disobeyed God and to obey God we follow Christ.

Uh, no, that's not what he is saying at all here. Paul preaches the resurrection of Christ, and of our resurrection through Christ.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[sooda]

I haven't had an opportunity to discuss the requirements of the Messiah with a Jew, but off hand I would say that Jesus fulfilled all the requisite prophecies concerning him being the Messiah.

There are additional prophecies in the OT that aren't explicitly tied to the Messiah - such as the Judgement and the new heaven and new earth - which we learn Jesus will fulfill with his second coming.

There are also new prophecies introduced in the NT - such as the second coming of Christ.

Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to n]">[n]mind.​

Isaiah 66:22-24 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All m]">[m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have n]">[n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all o]">[o]mankind.”​

Psalm 96:13 Before the Lord, for He is coming,
For He is coming to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
And the peoples in His faithfulness.​

Psalm 98:9 Before the Lord, for He is coming to judge the earth;
He will judge the world with righteousness
And the peoples with e]">[e]equity.​

Some of the Psalms are lifted from Canaanite poetry from the northern coast of Syria.

Isaiah prophesied that King Cyrus would enact the foremost decree for rebuilding the Jewish temple. The prophet began his message by honoring God for creating the heavens, then he praises God’s providence for bringing to life His servant Cyrus whom the Lord preordained hundreds of years in advance (Isaiah 44:24).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I haven't had an opportunity to discuss the requirements of the Messiah with a Jew, but off hand I would say that Jesus fulfilled all the requisite prophecies concerning him being the Messiah.

Then it is important we do understand why they reject Christ. It helps open the mind to different thoughts about Prophecy. I note Adrian has talked to you about this before.

That Jesus the Christ did not fulfill prophecy the way the Jews expected, is the warning Christ has given in the New Testament for the Christians. Christ tells the Christians not to go to sleep, which is when the spiritual significance becomes a literal material requirement.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

We must understand why we reject God's Messengers, so we do not keep repeating the same mistakes.

Regards Tony

 

[iam1me]

Then it is important we do understand why they reject Christ. It helps open the mind to different thoughts about Prophecy. I note Adrian has talked to you about this before.

An interesting topic to be sure. I'd personally love to go through a Jewish Seminary or the like for an indepth study of this and other matters.

That Jesus the Christ did not fulfill prophecy the way the Jews expected, is the warning Christ has given in the New Testament for the Christians. Christ tells the Christians not to go to sleep, which is when the spiritual significance becomes a literal material requirement.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

We must understand why we reject God's Messengers, so we do not keep repeating the same mistakes.

Regards Tony

Yes the Jews were wanting someone else. However, their rejection of Christ is also prophecy:

Psalm 118:22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.

Isaiah 28:16Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Zechariah 10:4 From Judah will come the cornerstone, from him the tent peg, from him the battle bow, from him every ruler.


Acts 4:11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone.

1 Peter 2:4-8 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is i]">[i]choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, j]">[j]are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in k]">[k]Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in l]">[l]Him will not be m]">[m]disappointed.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,” 8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
​

 

[CG Didymus]

It is Prophecy and Fruits of the Spirit we are told to look at.

We all look at prophecy differently and believe different things about what the prophecy means. Plus some things that are called prophecies by one religion aren't considered to be prophecies by the other religion. And often times, it is the Scriptures of that other religion we are talking about. Like with Jesus being born of a virgin? There are so many things in Isaiah that the boy in those verses is supposed to do and many things that are supposed to happen, but the one thing, supposedly being born of a virgin, is the only thing Christian use? And then, it might be a mistranslation of the word on top of that.

Then "Fruits of the Spirit"? All religions have some good fruit and some bad fruit and some rotten fruit.

 

[CG Didymus]

You continue to demonstrate a complete inability to understand the scriptures you cite. Staying awake has nothing to do with actively seeking out the time of the Second Coming - which both can't be known beforehand and which will be made evident to all when it comes. The point is that you persevere in Christ - vs saying, "Oh, he'll return at this time, so I'll just tidy up and be ready THEN - the rest of the time I'll continue living my sinful life as per usual."

That's a perfectly sound way to interpret that. But, how do you interpret the verses that Miller used from Daniel to get to, eventually, 1844? If the starting time is correct, and we know how many years are supposed to transpire, then, at the end of those years, what was supposed to happen? Or, is the starting date wrong and the amount of years wrong?

 

[CG Didymus]

The issue is, that you believe it has not happened and that you are ready and righteous. I can only offer that may be an error of judgement.

I say it did happen, proving Christ did come like a thief in the night to the vast majority.

Regards Tony

2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 1Concerning the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us-whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter-asserting that the day of the LORD has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple...​

A couple of issues here. First... it says Jesus is the one coming. So is Paul wrong? And should have said, "Now concerning the many comings of the Christ Spirit." Since Baha'is say Muhammad and their prophets were all the "return".

Then, what is the "rebellion" and who is this "man of lawlessness"? So if Christ returned in 1844, that makes The Bab, The Christ. But no, he was the forerunner of The Christ. But then what was Muhammad? For Baha'is, he has to be another "return" of Christ. But Paul makes it sound like there will only be one return, and he says if will be Jesus The Christ returning. But, let's say the Baha'is are right. Then, do we have multiple "men of lawlessness"? I'd imagine so.

So then, for The Bab, who was his "man of lawlessness", then who was Baha'u'llah's "man of lawlessness" and what was the rebellion that happened prior to each? Since I don't know, could the rebellion and this man be that well known? And, since I'm sure you're going to have some people in mind, probably some evil tyrannical Islamic leaders, did you even know about them until you became a Baha'i? Because Paul is making it sound like we should all know who the evil person was?

​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We all look at prophecy differently and believe different things about what the prophecy means. Plus some things that are called prophecies by one religion aren't considered to be prophecies by the other religion. And often times, it is the Scriptures of that other religion we are talking about. Like with Jesus being born of a virgin? There are so many things in Isaiah that the boy in those verses is supposed to do and many things that are supposed to happen, but the one thing, supposedly being born of a virgin, is the only thing Christian use? And then, it might be a mistranslation of the word on top of that.

Then "Fruits of the Spirit"? All religions have some good fruit and some bad fruit and some rotten fruit.

Hold on to what is good, all good is from God and all else is from us.

I see all Messengers are of a Virgin Birth. Though born from the womb of a mother and share of our humanity, they are born of the Holy Spirit, they are not like us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 1Concerning the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us-whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter-asserting that the day of the LORD has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple...​

A couple of issues here. First... it says Jesus is the one coming. So is Paul wrong? And should have said, "Now concerning the many comings of the Christ Spirit." Since Baha'is say Muhammad and their prophets were all the "return".

Then, what is the "rebellion" and who is this "man of lawlessness"? So if Christ returned in 1844, that makes The Bab, The Christ. But no, he was the forerunner of The Christ. But then what was Muhammad? For Baha'is, he has to be another "return" of Christ. But Paul makes it sound like there will only be one return, and he says if will be Jesus The Christ returning. But, let's say the Baha'is are right. Then, do we have multiple "men of lawlessness"? I'd imagine so.

So then, for The Bab, who was his "man of lawlessness", then who was Baha'u'llah's "man of lawlessness" and what was the rebellion that happened prior to each? Since I don't know, could the rebellion and this man be that well known? And, since I'm sure you're going to have some people in mind, probably some evil tyrannical Islamic leaders, did you even know about them until you became a Baha'i? Because Paul is making it sound like we should all know who the evil person was?

​

Holy Moly CG, that would require a book to answer that. Also the OP

But wait there is one, it is called the Kitab-i-iqan.

Personally, after finishing the Dawn Breakers again, I will go back and read that a few times. @InvestigateTruth post about that book inspired that.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Then it is important we do understand why they reject Christ. It helps open the mind to different thoughts about Prophecy. I note Adrian has talked to you about this before.

That Jesus the Christ did not fulfill prophecy the way the Jews expected, is the warning Christ has given in the New Testament for the Christians. Christ tells the Christians not to go to sleep, which is when the spiritual significance becomes a literal material requirement.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

We must understand why we reject God's Messengers, so we do not keep repeating the same mistakes.

Regards Tony

Since the prophecies that point to 1844 come from Daniel, why don't Jews see that year as the year for their Messiah? But then again, 1844 only gets us to The Bab and the Babi's. Why don't Jews have prophecies that point to the years Muhammad and Baha'u'llah declared the start of Islam and the Baha'i Faith?

 

[CG Didymus]

Hold on to what is good, all good is from God and all else is from us.

I see all Messengers are of a Virgin Birth. Though born from the womb of a mother and share of our humanity, they are born of the Holy Spirit, they are not like us.

Regards Tony

So the virgin birth of Jesus is symbolic and not literal? Just like his resurrection?

 

[CG Didymus]

Hold on to what is good, all good is from God and all else is from us.

I see all Messengers are of a Virgin Birth. Though born from the womb of a mother and share of our humanity, they are born of the Holy Spirit, they are not like us.

Regards Tony

So the virgin birth of Jesus is symbolic and not literal? Just like his resurrection?

Holy Moly CG, that would require a book to answer that. Also the OP

But wait there is one, it is called the Kitab-i-iqan.

Personally, after finishing the Dawn Breakers again, I will go back and read that a few times. @InvestigateTruth post about that book inspired that.

Regards Tony

No, it won't take a book.

Concerning the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ

Is Paul wrong in saying that it is Jesus coming back?

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed

Who is this man?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is Paul wrong in saying that it is Jesus coming back?

The body of Jesus is dead and buried. Personally I see Christ has returned, 3 times.

The Flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Hold on to what is good, all good is from God and all else is from us.

I see all Messengers are of a Virgin Birth. Though born from the womb of a mother and share of our humanity, they are born of the Holy Spirit, they are not like us.

Regards Tony

So the virgin birth of Jesus is symbolic and not literal? Just like his resurrection?

Holy Moly CG, that would require a book to answer that. Also the OP

But wait there is one, it is called the Kitab-i-iqan.

Personally, after finishing the Dawn Breakers again, I will go back and read that a few times. @InvestigateTruth post about that book inspired that.

Regards Tony

No, it won't take a book.

Concerning the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ

Is Paul wrong in saying that it is Jesus coming back?

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed

Who is this man?

Then it is important we do understand why they reject Christ. It helps open the mind to different thoughts about Prophecy. I note Adrian has talked to you about this before.

That Jesus the Christ did not fulfill prophecy the way the Jews expected, is the warning Christ has given in the New Testament for the Christians. Christ tells the Christians not to go to sleep, which is when the spiritual significance becomes a literal material requirement.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

We must understand why we reject God's Messengers, so we do not keep repeating the same mistakes.

Regards Tony

At the bottom of your link to Judaism 101 is a link to Jews for Jews. At that site it goes into why Jews reject the idea that the prophecies have been fulfilled.

The claim of Paul and the New Testament authors is that Jesus fulfilled many prophecies connected to the Hebrew Scriptures (so-called Old Testament) and a true believer will easily be able to see them. The gospel according to Matthew, in particular, attempts to cross-reference the miraculous birth, deeds and proclamations attributed to Jesus with relevant passages found in Tanach. What are the differences in Christianity vs Judaism?

Closer scrutiny, however, reveals a great conspiracy and tampering of the evidence. Not one verse from Tanach proves the messiahship of Jesus. On the contrary, our Jewish sages, for two millennium have had ample time to analyze and decipher all 22,000+ verses in Tanach, and have concluded that Jesus did not fulfill any of its prophecies, nor are there any passages that unambiguously allude to his life or ministry. On the contrary, we will discover how the New Testament distorts and contorts Tanach to make it “bend” to their a priori agenda to “prove” their beliefs about Jesus. Let’s see!
​

So are the Jews misinterpreting their own Scriptures? Or, have the Christian writers manipulated the verses to make them into fulfilled prophecies about Jesus?

Since Jesus did not write any of those things in the NT, Baha'is can't say that somehow they knew the correct meaning of those verses. Unless you think those writers were completely and totally inspired by God. If you do, you've got other problems. Oh no, I forgot. You always have the old "But that verse is symbolic". So no matter what the NT says, or any Scripture, Baha'is always have a loophole. Plus, they have the old, "Well, Baha'u'llah knows the true meaning. So who you gonna believe... what the plain text says or what God's messenger says it really says?"

So then why all this debate? Baha'is are right no matter what anyone from any other religion thinks their religion teaches.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who is this man?

We discussed that in some detail. It was Baha'u'llah's half brother Mirza Yahya Subh-i Azal

This link explains and has a provisional translation of a Tablet of Baha'u'llah . Baha'u'llah's Tablets of the Divine Test

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The body of Jesus is dead and buried. Personally I see Christ has returned, 3 times.

The Flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life.

Regards Tony

So Paul was wrong in saying that it is Jesus coming back... and implying that it was only once. Thank you. See it didn't take a whole book. But, who was the "man of lawlessness"?

 

[CG Didymus]

We discussed that in some detail. It was Baha'u'llah's half brother Mirza Yahya Subh-i Azal

Hmmm? Jesus won't return until the man of lawlessness is revealed first? So there was a rebellion and Mirza placed himself in power in the temple before Jesus returned?

I can see why you keep saying that only the pure of heart can see all this, because it sure doesn't make much sense trying to use my brain.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? Jesus won't return until the man of lawlessness is revealed first? So there was a rebellion and Mirza placed himself in power in the temple before Jesus returned?

I can see why you keep saying that only the pure of heart can see all this, because it sure doesn't make much sense trying to use my brain.

Well it is exactly as it unfolded. If you read the link it is a very short summary by Juan Cole.

The metephor is quite clear in this case. A bit like name and identify withheld only.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So Paul was wrong in saying that it is Jesus coming back... and implying that it was only once. Thank you. See it didn't take a whole book. But, who was the "man of lawlessness"?

Well Jesus returns as the Christ. Jesus as a man could only do it only once, he did say it was finished. Christ suffered first and will suffer last.

In the end, I am no Biblical Scholar, I just use the keys given by Baha'u'llah.

Can you imagine a Bible translation after see that the Glory of God is Baha'u'llah, the Gate is the Bab and that Muhammad was foretold in both the Torah and New Testament. Most likely some other things will come out of the locked cupboard and some dirty clothing might be washed. A few of those heretical books might get a 2nd glance.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since the prophecies that point to 1844 come from Daniel, why don't Jews see that year as the year for their Messiah? But then again, 1844 only gets us to The Bab and the Babi's. Why don't Jews have prophecies that point to the years Muhammad and Baha'u'llah declared the start of Islam and the Baha'i Faith?

They also expect a material unfoldment of an earthly King, just as the Christians do. Also I see the books are sealed and only opened by the Messenger of God. If one does not accept the Messenger, then one do not get to use the key to open the door.

This Link is an effort by Robert F. Riggs to give a commentary on the Book of Daniel. If you search for Muhammad in the text, it will show what he has connected Muhammad and Islam to in the book of Daniel.

I, Daniel

Christ also tells us to understand what Daniel said. I guess everyone is just to busy with this world to be as Abdul'baha was. When asked, Abdul'baha was able to give compelling interpretation of scripture. I know the world distracts me.

Regards Tony