The issue is, that you believe it has not happened and that you are ready and righteous. I can only offer that may be an error of judgement.
I say it did happen, proving Christ did come like a thief in the night to the vast majority.
Regards Tony
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Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
The issue is, that you believe it has not happened and that you are ready and righteous. I can only offer that may be an error of judgement.
I say it did happen, proving Christ did come like a thief in the night to the vast majority.
Regards Tony
iam1me
Active Member
When it occurs it will be made manifest to all. You selectively ignore the prophecies so as to maintain your false doctrine. Our conversation isn't going to progress on the matter since I adhere to scripture and you clearly don't.
I vote for different than expected and that many have not considered this yet.
Regards Tony
sooda
Veteran Member
Which prophecies ?
I am happy for that to be your conclusion. You have to live with your choices as I do mine and God gives all.
Regards Tony
sooda
Veteran Member
People get real sloppy about prophecy .. They don't know when the prophet lived or how many authors there were.. Some Christians think every prophecy is about the coming Messiah.
Most don't know exactly what prophets did. Often they think they could see into the future.
iam1me
Active Member
The ones about what we are discussing: The Second Coming of Christ, the End Days, etc.
sooda
Veteran Member
You should be specific. Not all prophecy is futuristic. So much of it was written after the fact.
iam1me
Active Member
The Second Coming of Christ is future, as is the End of Days, the Judgement, etc. I've already provided many scriptures relevant to the discussion here in this thread. Here's a few specific references.
Luke 17:22-37 And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them. 24 For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part p]">[p]of the sky, shines to the other part q]">[q]of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 r]">[r]It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and s]">[s]brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be t]">[t]just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to keep his u]">[u]life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 [v]">[v]Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”] 37 And answering they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the w]">[w]vultures will be gathered.”
Revelations 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.”
Matthew 24:1-31 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away a]">[a]when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” 3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the b]">[b]end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the c]">[c]Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will d]">[d]fall away and will e]">[e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, f]">[f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole g]">[g]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 h]">[h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 i]">[i]Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no j]">[j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the k]">[k]elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the l]">[l]Christ,’ or ‘m]">[m]There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will n]">[n]show great o]">[o]signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the p]">[p]elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the q]">[q]vultures will gather. 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from r]">[r]the sky, and the powers of s]">[s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His t]">[t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Matthew 24:42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Revelations 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.”
Matthew 24:1-31 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away a]">[a]when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” 3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the b]">[b]end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the c]">[c]Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will d]">[d]fall away and will e]">[e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, f]">[f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole g]">[g]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 h]">[h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 i]">[i]Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no j]">[j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the k]">[k]elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the l]">[l]Christ,’ or ‘m]">[m]There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will n]">[n]show great o]">[o]signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the p]">[p]elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the q]">[q]vultures will gather. 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from r]">[r]the sky, and the powers of s]">[s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His t]">[t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Matthew 24:42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
The Baha'i are one such sect telling people "Oh, look over here, here is Christ - he came again without your notice." They ignore both the fact that no one will know the time of the Lord's return (yet they cite the debunked predictions of William Miller), and that when the Lord does return - all will see him. No one will need to go tell people to go look here or there for him, it will be made manifest to all.
sooda
Veteran Member
Just as I figured. The tribulation was over in 70 AD.. You follow Scofield or Tim Lahaye?
iam1me
Active Member
The tribulation was not over in 70 AD. First off, if I had to pick a historical event as the Tribulation - that would be the Holocaust, which was far worse in scope and cruelty. However, even this doesn't fit as they weren't persecuted because of Christ.
sooda
Veteran Member
They thought the tribulation was pretty bad... and Jesus said you could avoid it by fleeing to the mountains.. which they did.. Some Jesus followers fled to Pella.
It was a local event to punish the Jews who fought the Romans... also for the crucifixion. God wasn't punishing the whole world.
Do you have any evidence that there are TWO tribulations?
iam1me
Active Member
First off, the same passage I already cited said there will be many wars and such:
v6-8 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Secondly, the Romans were fighting Jews in 70AD, not the Christians - which is who the Tribulation in question speaks of:
v9-10 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will d]">[d]fall away and will e]">[e]betray one another and hate one another.
Thirdly, the Tribulation will be the worst thing that the world has ever seen. It's days are cut short lest no one survive:
v21-22 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no j]">[j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the k]">[k]elect those days will be cut short.
War sucks, especially when you are the losing side - but it is a common occurrence. The Holocaust is the only historical event that comes close to matching this description - except that the victims weren't targeted because of Christ's name.
sooda
Veteran Member
You know that the legions under Titus command weren't all Romans.. They were Arabs and Egyptians and Syrians.. You might want to read Josephus wars.
The Holocaust included Christians, Jews, Gays, Clergy, Gypsies.. and has NOTHING to do with Biblical prophecy.
In the futurist view of Christian eschatology, the Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where everyone will experience worldwide hardships, disasters, famine, war, pain, and suffering, which will wipe out more than 75% of all life on the earth before the Second Coming takes place.
Why would God punish the whole world thousands of years in the future?
The destruction in 70 AD occurred within a 40-year generation from the time when Jesus gave that discourse.
The judgment on the Jewish nation was executed by the Roman legions, "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15).
iam1me
Active Member
Ok, what's your point?
I agree that it wasn't the fulfillment of prophecy. However, it was a far worse tribulation than 70AD. As such, 70AD is disqualified on that point alone.
There is no restriction on the prophecy stating it needed to occur within a specific period of time. Rather, the scriptures are abundantly clear that no one will know when the Day of the Lord will be - not even Christ.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
You can assert that the Roman legions were the "abomination of desolation" - however that is merely a bad speculation. 70AD fails as the fulfillment of the prophecy on several points that I have already put forth in my previous post - which you ignored.
Furthermore, the Second Coming of Christ will come immediately at the end of the tribulation:
Matthew 24:29-31 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from r]">[r]the sky, and the powers of s]">[s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His t]">[t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Do you support the stance made by the Jews, that Christ did not filfill the requirements to be the Messiah? Your argument used, strongly supports their stance, that Jesus did not show that the required signs were fulfilled. To a Jew it is a big list that needs to be fulfilled.
To me this stance on Prophecy, also shows that Christain and Muslim theology about God, will never be reconciled.
Regards Tony
sooda
Veteran Member
Not every prophecy is about Jesus.. Some are about Cyrus the Great.
St Paul's verses are simply talking about obedience to God. Adam disobeyed God and to obey God we follow Christ.
iam1me
Active Member
I haven't had an opportunity to discuss the requirements of the Messiah with a Jew, but off hand I would say that Jesus fulfilled all the requisite prophecies concerning him being the Messiah.
There are additional prophecies in the OT that aren't explicitly tied to the Messiah - such as the Judgement and the new heaven and new earth - which we learn Jesus will fulfill with his second coming.
There are also new prophecies introduced in the NT - such as the second coming of Christ.
Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to n]">[n]mind.
And the former things will not be remembered or come to n]">[n]mind.
Isaiah 66:22-24 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All m]">[m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have n]">[n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all o]">[o]mankind.”
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All m]">[m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have n]">[n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all o]">[o]mankind.”
Psalm 96:13 Before the Lord, for He is coming,
For He is coming to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
And the peoples in His faithfulness.
For He is coming to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
And the peoples in His faithfulness.
Psalm 98:9 Before the Lord, for He is coming to judge the earth;
He will judge the world with righteousness
And the peoples with e]">[e]equity.
He will judge the world with righteousness
And the peoples with e]">[e]equity.
iam1me
Active Member
The one's in question are about Christ