1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Jun 29, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    17.5%
  2. No

    36 vote(s)
    63.2%
  3. Possibly

    6 vote(s)
    10.5%
  4. I don't know

    5 vote(s)
    8.8%
  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,177
    Ratings:
    +297
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    Judaism is basically a religion of the nation of Israel.
    In order to be a Jew, the person should be circumcised - removal of the foreskin, a very painful undertaking.
    Mind you, I had mine at the hospital when I was a teenager where the doctor performed it with anesthesia and still it was painful how much more with a rabbi with no anesthesia?
    upload_2019-4-9_21-13-53.jpeg

    Anyways, Judaism is more of an Israel religion, the old covenant.
    When Christ came he said:

    Matthew 16:18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
    So I tell you, you are Peter. And I will build my church on this rock. The power of death will not be able to defeat my church.

    Christ Jesus established a church, not a nation of Israel.
    The man Christ Jesus became the mediator of a new covenant between Man and God.
    Its no longer Israel and God covenant but between Man and God.
    So it is wrong to say that Christianity is a sect of Judaism.
    In fact Judaism persecuted Christianity

    Acts 8:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
    And Saul approved of their killing him.

    On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

    I don't find the word Quran in the OT or the NT Bible.
    Next the Quran made a mistake about Mary

    The Quran calls Mary "the daughter of Imran" and it mentions that people called her a "sister of Aaron". Her mother, mentioned in the Quran only as the wife of Imran, prayed for a child and eventually conceived.
    Mary in Islam - Wikipedia
    [​IMG]

    The sister of Aaron who is the brother of Moses is Miriam
    Miriam is not Mary.
    Mary's family tree is

    [​IMG]

    Now if we insist that Mary is really the daughter of Imran instead of Joachim [Heli] the family tree would look like this:

    upload_2019-4-9_21-34-56.png

    The Quran made Moses the uncle of Jesus.
    The mistake of the Quran is glaring and obvious.
    I believe if the Arabs would like to steal from the Bible, at least they should have done justice.
    Sometimes copiers do make mistakes in copying, can't blame them.

    Lets check the authors of the Old Testament

    BibleAuthorsTanak.JPG

    From Moses to Malachi - they are all Israelites Exodus 1:7
    The New Testament Bible writers are also Israelites Acts 2:22
    Jesus Christ is an Israelite John 1:47

    The Bible was written by Israelites, God's chosen during those days.

    Quran -by Arabs from Mohammed allegedly from angel Gabriel from Allah.
    609 A.D.

    In order to gain some credibility took some ideas from the Bible.
    But not all plagiarism are perfect
    How can somebody make an obvious mistake like this?

    The Quran calls Mary "the daughter of Imran" and it mentions that people called her a "sister of Aaron". Her mother, mentioned in the Quran only as the wife of Imran, prayed for a child and eventually conceived.
    Mary in Islam - Wikipedia
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Koran confuses Mary with Miriam the sister of Aaron and Moses, and daughter of Amram which is about 1400 years off. Aaron was a Levite and older brother of Moses.. Was Moses also a Levite?

    Muslims sometimes refer to a wider concept of brother and sister in faith, but I think 1400 years is too big a gap.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,741
    Ratings:
    +3,088
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    As you have suggested; "There are those who try to honestly understand what each religion and philosophy says."

    I have found when we do this, we find Christ in all that has come from God.

    To reject what has come from God, through Christ, has been the history of faith up to and inclusive of our time.

    I see that you can not know and share what is from Christ, until one also embraces the Message given by Muhammad in the Quran.

    Agreed. This advice also applicable to the New Testament and the Quran.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    Muslims know a lot about Jesus and revere him as the purest of the prophets, but they don't accept original sin or blood sacrifice. The notion that such a holy man could die such a cruel and humiliating death offends their most basic beliefs about justice. They think the episode on Mount Moriah with Abraham and Isaac (or Ishmael) was about God forbidding blood sacrifice forever.

    Jesus is mention in the Koran more often than Muhammed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,199
    Ratings:
    +6,148
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    There are many verses in the Hebrew Bible that refer to prophets, some may refer to specific prophets, others prophets generally. Deuteronomy 18:18 could refer to the other Hebrew prophets such as Isaiah and Daniel, not just Jesus.

    It is noteworthy to consider that Muahmmad is from the lineage of Ishmael and God said to Abraham:

    And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
    Genesis 17:20

    By nation can mean religion. The nation of Israel and the religion of Judaism are somewhat analogous. So from Ishmael came the nation of Islam.

    There are two responsibilities. One is to recognise thue Messiahs or Prophets. The other is to reject false Messiah's and Prophet. Muhammad taught the Oneness of God, brought laws as Moses did, and united His people as King David did the Israelite tribes. He revealed the Quran which is available for us all to consider, just as we have the Torah and Gospels. I accept Muhammad as a Messenger of God and it seems clear that He is has a similar role for humanity as did Moses and Jesus. Clearly Christians such as yourself see Muhammad as a false prophet. There are of course spiritual consequences for rejecting a True Prophet of God as there are following a false prophet.

    I appreciate the majority of Christians believe in the resurrection literally. There are problems with this narrative and end time eschatology is complex. Suffice it to say, there are other approaches to verses concerning the resurrection and the Day of Judgment, that are more coherent and sensible than the one taken by some Christian fundamentalists.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,177
    Ratings:
    +297
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    Ishmael was the illegitimate child of Abraham. And truly Ishmael descendants became the Arabs of today - a very peaceful people of a great nation.

    Jesus Christ, I believe is the last prophet of God, the Son of God, the reason why God made the universe. That is why he said it many times:

    Mark 13:22-23 New International Version (NIV)
    For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    Matthew 24:24-26 New International Version (NIV)

    For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.

    So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

    There is only one messiah and the last great prophet and that is Jesus Christ.

    No comment on why Mary in the Quran is different from the Mary in the Bible? You know the Bible came first than the Quran.

    Here is what the Quran says about Mary, the mother of Jesus:

    "Then she brought [Jesus] to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented. O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste." - Quran 19:27-28

    "And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, and We breathed into (her body) of our spirit; and she believed in the words of her Lord and of His revelations, and was of the devoutly obedient." - Quran 66:12

    There are a number of "Mary" - also spelled "Maria" or "Miriam" in English - in the Bible. One of them is the mother of Jesus:

    "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: after His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit." - Matthew 1:18

    But the Mary who is the "daughter of Imran" (spelled "Amran" in the Bible) and the "sister of Aaron" was the sister of Moses who lived in the 15th century BC:

    "The name of Amram's wife was Jochebed the daughter of Levi, who was born to Levi in Egypt; and to Amram she bore Aaron and Moses and their sister Miriam." - Numbers 26:59

    Therefore, unless Mary was 1,500 years old when she bore Jesus - indeed, unless Joseph married a 1,500 year old virgin - Muhammad mistook two different women in the Bible as the same Mary.

    Everyone will be resurrected - you, me, everybody - past, present and future
    And resurrection is in the Bible
    Can't ignore it when it is there when it almost took one chapter for apostle Paul to explain
    1 Corinthians 15:12-58
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    I already addressed the confusion about Mary and Miriam in a lengthy post earlier. What's wrong with you. Are you just charging along with this?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,199
    Ratings:
    +6,148
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It is based on the Abrahamic Covenant.

    Covenant (biblical) - Wikipedia

    The story of the Hebrew Bible is basically from when the land of Canaan is conquered by the Israelites under Joshua and the establishment of the nation of Israel that becomes united and establishes its peakunder the rule of King David, before becoming divided again, the exile under the Assyrians, Babylonians, with restoration under the Persians. The Jewish people are exiled again with the fall of Jerusalem 70 AD under the Romans. The nation of Israel was re-established in 1948 under the United Nations.

    That is all true.

    I agree.

    I'm not sure where you're going telling the story of Paul of Tarsus.

    That's because the Quran was revealed after the OT and NT.

    As stated in my previous post to another, Muhammad affirms the authenticity and authority of the Gospels.

    nd We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein....".
    Quran, Sura 5 46, 47

    Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him."
    Quran, sura 57 verse 27

    The references to Imran and Aaron are to establish the spiritual station of Mary, not to describe her lineage. Mary is considered the greatest of all woman in Islam.

    From the link you have posted:

    Mary holds a singularly exalted place in Islam as the only woman named in the Quran, which refers to her seventy times and explicitly identifies her as the greatest of all women,stating, with reference to the angelic saluation during the annunciation, "O Mary, God has chosen you, and purified you; He has chosen you above all the women of creation." In the Quran, her story is related in seven chapters in the Quran. The nineteenth chapter of the scripture, titled "Mary" (Surat Maryam), is named after her. The Quran refers to Mary more often than the New Testament.

    According to the Quran, Divine grace surrounded Mary from birth, and, as a young woman, she received a message from God through the archangel Gabriel that God had chosen her, purified her, and had preferred her above all "the women of the worlds." This event, according to the same narrative, was followed by the annunciation of a child who was to be miraculously conceived by her through the intervention of the divine spirit while she was still virgin, whose name would be Jesus and who would be the "anointed one," the Promised Messiah. As such, orthodox Islamic belief "has upheld the tenet of the virgin birth of Jesus,".


    Mary in Islam - Wikipedia

    There's no mistake or theft. Mary being the mother of Christ meant she was likely one Christ's closest companions throughout His life. In that sense her relationship was like a sister or brother to Moses (Aaron or Miriam). Mary was the one who remained the strongest after Christ's crucifixion to comfort the other disciples and amongst the first to recognise the resurrected Christ. It is about he spiritual station, not about lineage.

    Should we take literally the biblical verses that claim John the Baptist was Elijah (Luke 1:17 and Matthew 17:11-12)? Of course not. These verses have spiritual, not literal significance.

    God is not enthnocentric. Although He revealed himself through the Hebrew Prophets as we all know, there is no reason He could not do so through a Persian, Indian or an Arab. God is the God of all and loves all.

    That is correct.

    Muhammad's purpose was to teach monotheism and the worship the One True God to the pagan tribes of the Arabian Pennisula. His purpose wasn't to reveal His Mission to Christians or Jews. As Christianity builds on Judaism with taking the Hebrew Bible and claiming it as their own, so does Muhammad draw on the OT and NT. If one accuses Muhammad of stealing and plagairism, then the same can be said of the Christians. We need to be fair and consistent in our judgment.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,199
    Ratings:
    +6,148
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Would you elaborate please?
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian

    Excellent post all the way thru.. Thanks.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,199
    Ratings:
    +6,148
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I don't think he's here to engage in a reasoned and informed discussion where we can all learn from each other. Do you?
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    You know, I'm no longer sure.. I read the verse Deuteronomy 18:18 in context here:

    Religious Forums

    Do you think he's talking about Jesus?
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    No.. I don't think so.
     
  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,199
    Ratings:
    +6,148
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I think it could refer to all Hebrew Prophets including Jesus. If we go the the next verses the Jews really emphasise:

    20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
    21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
    22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.


    One of their arguments for rejecting Christ is that He abrogates or contradicts Covenants that were established that are both Eternal and Unchanging. Personally I find the Jewish argument too rigid and reliant on literalism.
     
  16. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,177
    Ratings:
    +297
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    Now that is a misconception.

    During the time of Moses, the only true God chose Israel to be his while the rest of the world civilizations are worthless to God.

    2 Kings 5:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
    And he returned to the man of God, he and all his aides, and came and stood before him; and he said, “Indeed, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, except in Israel; now therefore, please take a gift from your servant.”

    Isn't it true that God freed the Israelites from Egypt?
    So what happened to these manifestations?

    upload_2019-4-10_6-44-40.jpeg


    How many plagues did Egypt suffered?

    upload_2019-4-10_6-58-17.jpeg
    Apparently they did not help beat the God of Israel so they are certainly fake gods.

    Now we are in the Common Era [CE] or Christian Era - things have changed since God sent his Son, Jesus Christ. There are no more Israelites left. The present day Israel are run by Euro-Anglo Jews who call themselves Israeli [contrast to Israelites].

    Who do you think God favors?

    Ephesians 2:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

    Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    According to the Bible, the world is ...
    [​IMG]

    Only those who are IN CHRIST Jesus have the covenants of promise, have hope and have God.

    And that's in the bible.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    Ishmael wasn't illegitimate. You really don't know anything about the culture of the ME.

    Everybody in the ME is circumcised dating back to ancient Egypt.

    We've already covered the Miriam Mary issue... twice.
     
  18. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,177
    Ratings:
    +297
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    Genesis 16:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. And she had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar.

    Genesis 16:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
    So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram named his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael.

    Abram did not marry the maid.
    So Ishmael is called ____ when his parents aren't married.
    It starts with the letter B.
    But illegitimate would do.

    Miriam Mary issue - twice - I say that is not enough.

    upload_2019-4-10_7-39-46.png
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    Like I said, you are ignorant of the culture .
     
  20. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,177
    Ratings:
    +297
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    It is without doubt that Ismael descendants were the Arabs.
    God promised Ishmael the blessings of a great nation.
    But he was the son of Abram's maid - Hagar
    Of which Sarai consented Abram to have an affair with
    Even though that transpired and the circumstances surrounding it
    I could not negate the fact that Ismael is illegitimate.
    Whether that is ME or wherever it is the same thing.
     
Loading...