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Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 17.5%
  • No

    Votes: 36 63.2%
  • Possibly

    Votes: 6 10.5%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 5 8.8%

  • Total voters
    57

ecco

Veteran Member
Well both the theology of Cristianity and Islam has been interpreted to wait. In that aspect they agree.

Baha'u'llah confirmed that the religious divines will wait and as such hold back the masses, by this provoking thought;

So we can say many religious leaders ".......are still oblivious of the fact that all the signs foretold have come to pass, that the way of God’s holy Cause hath been revealed, and the concourse of the faithful, swift as lightning, are, even now, passing upon that way, whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones! Wait ye even as those before you are waiting!...."

Regards Tony
Did Baha'u'llah write that?

RE: all the signs foretold have come to pass
What "all" signs? That's the kind of vague nonsense that sheeples unquestioningly accept.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And the Qá’im, He
shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”
No one knew the hidden meaning of scriptures. Bahaullah's revelation unsealed the hidden meanings.

Can you follow along on your own posts? I sure can't.

First, you write that everything has seventy meanings and that it shall be the Qá’im who must explain the meanings. Then you say Bahaullah revealed the meanings.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Did Baha'u'llah write that?

RE: all the signs foretold have come to pass
What "all" signs? That's the kind of vague nonsense that sheeples unquestioningly accept.

Yes Baha'u'llah did.

Most people expect a big fanfare, lights whistles, trumpets, angels with a Christ descending on a puffy white cloud. Since time began all Messengers have not come with fanfare and have been rejected, as mostly all want this fanfare. It is always a few that see the Spiritual Christ. This is recorded History, undeniable.

A new Message from God always brings a New Heaven and a New Earth. Each time all the signs are made manifest, but not always outwardly, they are spiritual unfolded. Thus is we reject Baha'u'llah because we do not see wonders materialize, then we must reject all Messengers as the expected wonders accompanied none of them.

Baha'u'llah has explained all this and it is all recorded in the Kitab-i-iqan.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán

This does not mean that a material unfoldment of sone Biblical Prophecy can not happen. In fact the prediction that 2/3 of the worlds population may perish, that earthquakes will rock this world are still valid. It is most likely they are to come.

God has sent His Messenger and the warnings have been given and it is confirmed the Old World Order will crumble.

Thus one can say it is vague nonsense, but one may have to consider it is ones own self that is wrapped in an expectation of vague nonsense.

Peace be with you and all, regards Tony
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Short answer, no. Because Christian theology is grounded in the teaching that Christ was the son of man and the only begotten son of God.
Islam's Koran teaches Allah has no son. Sura (verse)17:111

17_111.png

Sahih International: And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification."

Pickthall: And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence.

Yusuf Ali: Say: "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"

Shakir: And say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has not taken a son and Who has not a partner in the kingdom, and Who has not a helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him).

Muhammad Sarwar: Say, "It is only God who deserves all praise. He has not begotten a son and has no partner in His Kingdom. He does not need any guardian to help Him in His need. Proclaim His greatness.

Mohsin Khan: And say: "All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has not begotten a son (nor an offspring), and Who has no partner in (His) Dominion, nor He is low to have a Wali (helper, protector or supporter). And magnify Him with all the magnificence, [Allahu-Akbar (Allah is the Most Great)]."

Arberry: And say: 'Praise belongs to God, who has not taken to Him a son, and who has not any associate in the Kingdom, nor any protector out of humbleness.' And magnify Him with repeated magnificats.
Excerpts from this Source
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Another way to look at it is that this is not a material story.

Adam is Humanity. Eve is mans Soul and the story is a record of mans use of free will all told using metephor.

God's Covernant is that we will not be left alone with free will, without being given choice. Thus God's Covernant is that He will always send a Message. God has kept His side of the Covernant. Our side is to accept the Messengers and learn from them.

Regards Tony
Is that an "official" Baha'i interpretation or yours? 'Cause man's soul "Eve" is the one that got deceived by the serpent which represents what to Baha'is? Then, God curses the serpent and Adam and Eve. What do those curses represent? Just one meaning... not all 70 and 1.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This does not mean that a material unfoldment of sone Biblical Prophecy can not happen. In fact the prediction that 2/3 of the worlds population may perish, that earthquakes will rock this world are still valid. It is most likely they are to come.
Here's a quote from Revelation 11. A specific amount of people are killed. Baha'is have said there was some earthquakes after The Bab was killed, but they never say that 7000 were killed. So the earthquake was a literal prediction but the amount of people killed was symbolic?

12And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them. 13And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand were killed in the quake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14The second woe has passed. Behold, the third woe is coming shortly.…
Since earthquakes happen all the time, how big of a deal is it to predict that an earthquake will occur? Unless you specify where and when, or... how many will be killed? We know how many and... we know where:

Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.
So who knows what great city is "figuratively" called Sodom and Egypt, but Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. Baha'is say that the "Second Woe" is the Bab, so, if that is correct, then we know the time too. The Baha'is claim there was as earthquake that fulfilled this, but say it was in Iran and don't say how many people died. So? It was fulfilled symbolically? If so, then of course, all prophecy has been fulfilled, because Baha'is decide on how a prophecy is fulfilled. And who, other than Baha'is, are going to believe that?​
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Is that an "official" Baha'i interpretation or yours? 'Cause man's soul "Eve" is the one that got deceived by the serpent which represents what to Baha'is? Then, God curses the serpent and Adam and Eve. What do those curses represent? Just one meaning... not all 70 and 1.

Then I would only link you to Abdul'bha's explanation. Abdul'baha sees with Baha'u'llah's eyes, I am still trying. As you know that is in Some Answered Questions.

What I consider is the power of letters and numbers. It is written all existance came into being by joining the letters B & E, there are numbers associated with thise letters. Thus why would we limit revelation from God?

How can we think this is not so? Look what we can do with just a few letters and numbers in technology, what we create by use of letters and numbers.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Here's a quote from Revelation 11. A specific amount of people are killed. Baha'is have said there was some earthquakes after The Bab was killed, but they never say that 7000 were killed. So the earthquake was a literal prediction but the amount of people killed was symbolic?

12And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them. 13And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand were killed in the quake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14The second woe has passed. Behold, the third woe is coming shortly.…
Since earthquakes happen all the time, how big of a deal is it to predict that an earthquake will occur? Unless you specify where and when, or... how many will be killed? We know how many and... we know where:

Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.
So who knows what great city is "figuratively" called Sodom and Egypt, but Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. Baha'is say that the "Second Woe" is the Bab, so, if that is correct, then we know the time too. The Baha'is claim there was as earthquake that fulfilled this, but say it was in Iran and don't say how many people died. So? It was fulfilled symbolically? If so, then of course, all prophecy has been fulfilled, because Baha'is decide on how a prophecy is fulfilled. And who, other than Baha'is, are going to believe that?​

I can say numbers would have great meaning, but 7000?

7 is significant in the bible and there were 7 existing and practiced religions after the 42 month period mentioned earlier, which then does include Muhammad. The Bab and Baha'u'llah being the 8th and 9th.

Thus 7000 slayed could mean that the vast majority of the 7 existing Faiths would not except the event that unfolded, the 1000's representing a large number.

A tenth of the city that collapsed could tie back into falling empires of that time, or people falling away from the main teachings and going with their own thoughts.

The great earthquake could be the shaking of time honoured traditions and doctrines that were abolished by the Message given by the Bab. That the Bab was slayed and humanity did not embrace that change could mean the event has released a powerful corrective action.

One day when we sit down as humanity and explore all these verses in unity, I am more than sure much of this will become clearer.

But for now we all stumble with what we have been given and the effort we exert in what we strive for.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Can you follow along on your own posts? I sure can't.

First, you write that everything has seventy meanings and that it shall be the Qá’im who must explain the meanings. Then you say Bahaullah revealed the meanings.
Very easy. Bahaullah is the Qaim.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I can say numbers would have great meaning, but 7000?

7 is significant in the bible and there were 7 existing and practiced religions after the 42 month period mentioned earlier, which then does include Muhammad. The Bab and Baha'u'llah being the 8th and 9th.

Thus 7000 slayed could mean that the vast majority of the 7 existing Faiths would not except the event that unfolded, the 1000's representing a large number.

A tenth of the city that collapsed could tie back into falling empires of that time, or people falling away from the main teachings and going with their own thoughts.

The great earthquake could be the shaking of time honoured traditions and doctrines that were abolished by the Message given by the Bab. That the Bab was slayed and humanity did not embrace that change could mean the event has released a powerful corrective action.

One day when we sit down as humanity and explore all these verses in unity, I am more than sure much of this will become clearer.

But for now we all stumble with what we have been given and the effort we exert in what we strive for.

Regards Tony
I guess then all the prophecies have been fulfilled. But, in a way the prophecies are kind of meaningless. Anything can be made to mean whatever you want.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I guess then all the prophecies have been fulfilled. But, in a way the prophecies are kind of meaningless. Anything can be made to mean whatever you want.

Except they are fulfilled by God in His way by His chosen Messengers. That is Gods side of the Covernant fulfilled.

Now it is our duty under that covernant to accept God Messengers, whenever God chooses to send them and how God chooses to reveal them.

Regards Tony
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Did Baha'u'llah write that?
Yes Baha'u'llah did.
Reference?

RE: all the signs foretold have come to pass
What "all" signs? That's the kind of vague nonsense that sheeples unquestioningly accept.
Most people expect a big fanfare, lights whistles, trumpets, angels with a Christ descending on a puffy white cloud. Since time began all Messengers have not come with fanfare and have been rejected, as mostly all want this fanfare. It is always a few that see the Spiritual Christ. This is recorded History, undeniable.

A new Message from God always brings a New Heaven and a New Earth. Each time all the signs are made manifest, but not always outwardly, they are spiritual unfolded. Thus is we reject Baha'u'llah because we do not see wonders materialize, then we must reject all Messengers as the expected wonders accompanied none of them.

Baha'u'llah has explained all this and it is all recorded in the Kitab-i-iqan.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán

This is from your link.

As to the matter of names, Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God.​

Please show where Muhammad ever referred to himself as Jesus. Note that those quote marks are in the original.



This does not mean that a material unfoldment of sone Biblical Prophecy can not happen. In fact the prediction that 2/3 of the worlds population may perish, that earthquakes will rock this world are still valid. It is most likely they are to come.

God has sent His Messenger and the warnings have been given and it is confirmed the Old World Order will crumble.

Thus one can say it is vague nonsense, but one may have to consider it is ones own self that is wrapped in an expectation of vague nonsense.

Peace be with you and all, regards Tony

I asked
RE: all the signs foretold have come to pass
What "all" signs? All you did was reply with some mumbo jumbo. You could not show any signs foretold have come to pass.

It's really looking that Bahai's love to tap dance around things when asked to produce specifics.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He
shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

Bahaullah, Iqan

Can you follow along on your own posts? I sure can't.

First, you write that everything has seventy meanings and that it shall be the Qá’im who must explain the meanings. Then you say Bahaullah revealed the meanings.

Very easy. Bahaullah is the Qaim.

Bahaullah is the Qaim? Really? Then why did Bahaullah write "And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth"?

Clearly, Bahaullah is stating that at some time in the future the Qá’im shall arise and reveal something to all people who are still alive then.
Clearly, Bahaullah is not the Qá’im who has not yet arisen.

Care to try again?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Bahaullah is the Qaim? Really? Then why did Bahaullah write "And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth"?

Clearly, Bahaullah is stating that at some time in the future the Qá’im shall arise and reveal something to all people who are still alive then.
Clearly, Bahaullah is not the Qá’im who has not yet arisen.

Care to try again?
Bahaullah was narrating a prophecy from the Shia Imams. He is saying, that 1000 years before Him, Shia Imams had said, when Qaim comes, He reveals the hidden meanings. Then, Bahaullah reminded this prophecy, to prove to His audience that, through the new Revelation of Qaim, hidden meanings will be revealed. Then in subsequent years, Bahaullah wrote many scriptures revealing the hidden meanings, and fulfilling the prophecy of Qaim.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Bahaullah is the Qaim? Really? Then why did Bahaullah write "And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth"?

Clearly, Bahaullah is stating that at some time in the future the Qá’im shall arise and reveal something to all people who are still alive then.
Clearly, Bahaullah is not the Qá’im who has not yet arisen.

Care to try again?

Bahaullah was narrating a prophecy from the Shia Imams. He is saying, that 1000 years before Him, Shia Imams had said, when Qaim comes, He reveals the hidden meanings.

In order to verify this, you will have to show where it states that Bahaullah was narrating a prophecy from the Shia Imams. You will also need to show which Shia Imam made such a prediction and the actual text of those predictions.

If you cannot, all you have is:
Bahaullah: A thousand years ago an Imam predicted I would be here. Here I am, the fulfillment of the Imam's prediction.


Then, Bahaullah reminded this prophecy, to prove to His audience that, through the new Revelation of Qaim, hidden meanings will be revealed. Then in subsequent years, Bahaullah wrote many scriptures revealing the hidden meanings, and fulfilling the prophecy of Qaim.

You had stated that Bahaullah is Qaim. If Bahaullah is Qaim, then the above from Bahaullah reads:
Then, I reminded this prophecy, to prove to My audience that, through the new Revelation of Mine, hidden meanings will be revealed. Then in subsequent years, I will write many scriptures revealing the hidden meanings, and fulfilling My prophecy.​

Or:
I'm writing stuff to show that I revealed my hidden meanings and then, later on, I will write some more stuff to show how right I was.​

Uh huh.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
In order to verify this, you will have to show where it states that Bahaullah was narrating a prophecy from the Shia Imams. You will also need to show which Shia Imam made such a prediction and the actual text of those predictions.

If you cannot, all you have is:
Bahaullah: A thousand years ago an Imam predicted I would be here. Here I am, the fulfillment of the Imam's prediction.




You had stated that Bahaullah is Qaim. If Bahaullah is Qaim, then the above from Bahaullah reads:
Then, I reminded this prophecy, to prove to My audience that, through the new Revelation of Mine, hidden meanings will be revealed. Then in subsequent years, I will write many scriptures revealing the hidden meanings, and fulfilling My prophecy.​

Or:
I'm writing stuff to show that I revealed my hidden meanings and then, later on, I will write some more stuff to show how right I was.​

Uh huh.

Bahaullah is saying "it is recorded" . This expression is used, when they are narrating a recorded tradition. These ideas about the Qaim, were well-known in Shia Traditions, and one of the Muslim Scholars who converted to Bahai Faith wrote a book where he found the source of every recorded tradition that Bahaullah mentioned in the Book of Iqan.
The Bab and Bahaullah appeared at a time, when in Persia, many people were expecting Manifestation of the Qaim. Qaim is a promised one of Islam, who according to traditions, will come to establish true religion again, after it becomes corrupted. There are many prophecies about Him in Islam.
The Bab, who appeared just before Bahaullah claimed to be the Qaim. Then after the Bab was executed, Bahaullah claimed to be the next Manifestation of the Qaim. Qaim means the One who rises, and in Quran even God is said to be Qaim. It is a term, which according to Bahai Concept of Oneness of prophets, can be the name of any of the Messengers and Manifestations of God. According to Shia Traditions, Qaim will live 120 years, and when He disappears, He reappears in the form of a 33 years old man. When the Bab was executed, Bahaullah was 33 years old. The 120 years life span of Qaim, is an allusion to the number of years, His mission is completed. The Bab appeared in 1844, and in 1963, Universal House of Justice was established, as the last thing to mark completion of Religion of Bahai faith. From 1844 to 1963, there are 120 years, thus fulfilling the prophecy.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Bahaullah is saying "it is recorded" . This expression is used, when they are narrating a recorded tradition. These ideas about the Qaim, were well-known in Shia Traditions, and one of the Muslim Scholars who converted to Bahai Faith wrote a book where he found the source of every recorded tradition that Bahaullah mentioned in the Book of Iqan.
So a Muslim converts to Bahai and writes a book "confirming" what Bahaullah writes. That's convenient. I suppose there are Muslim scholars who have further confirmed this.


The Bab and Bahaullah appeared at a time, when in Persia, many people were expecting Manifestation of the Qaim. Qaim is a promised one of Islam, who according to traditions, will come to establish true religion again, after it becomes corrupted. There are many prophecies about Him in Islam.
The Bab, who appeared just before Bahaullah claimed to be the Qaim. Then after the Bab was executed, Bahaullah claimed to be the next Manifestation of the Qaim. Qaim means the One who rises, and in Quran even God is said to be Qaim.
It is a term, which according to Bahai Concept of Oneness of prophets, can be the name of any of the Messengers and Manifestations of God. According to Shia Traditions, Qaim will live 120 years, and when He disappears, He reappears in the form of a 33 years old man. When the Bab was executed, Bahaullah was 33 years old. The 120 years life span of Qaim, is an allusion to the number of years, His mission is completed. The Bab appeared in 1844, and in 1963, Universal House of Justice was established, as the last thing to mark completion of Religion of Bahai faith. From 1844 to 1963, there are 120 years, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

I read up a little about the Bab and Bahi here...
Báb - Wikipedia
...and in links therein.


Bottom line is that it is really no different than any number of other minor religions/cults/sects. Some guys claims he has great insights, or great wisdom or knowledge. The guy gets a following, does some esoteric preaching, writes a lot of stuff. It's just as unimpressive as Rev. Moon, David Koresh, Joseph Smith, et al ad nauseam.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Bahaullah is saying "it is recorded" . This expression is used, when they are narrating a recorded tradition. These ideas about the Qaim, were well-known in Shia Traditions, and one of the Muslim Scholars who converted to Bahai Faith wrote a book where he found the source of every recorded tradition that Bahaullah mentioned in the Book of Iqan.
The Bab and Bahaullah appeared at a time, when in Persia, many people were expecting Manifestation of the Qaim. Qaim is a promised one of Islam, who according to traditions, will come to establish true religion again, after it becomes corrupted. There are many prophecies about Him in Islam.
The Bab, who appeared just before Bahaullah claimed to be the Qaim. Then after the Bab was executed, Bahaullah claimed to be the next Manifestation of the Qaim. Qaim means the One who rises, and in Quran even God is said to be Qaim. It is a term, which according to Bahai Concept of Oneness of prophets, can be the name of any of the Messengers and Manifestations of God. According to Shia Traditions, Qaim will live 120 years, and when He disappears, He reappears in the form of a 33 years old man. When the Bab was executed, Bahaullah was 33 years old. The 120 years life span of Qaim, is an allusion to the number of years, His mission is completed. The Bab appeared in 1844, and in 1963, Universal House of Justice was established, as the last thing to mark completion of Religion of Bahai faith. From 1844 to 1963, there are 120 years, thus fulfilling the prophecy.
How about in "lunar" years?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Bahaullah is saying "it is recorded" . This expression is used, when they are narrating a recorded tradition. These ideas about the Qaim, were well-known in Shia Traditions, and one of the Muslim Scholars who converted to Bahai Faith wrote a book where he found the source of every recorded tradition that Bahaullah mentioned in the Book of Iqan.
The Bab and Bahaullah appeared at a time, when in Persia, many people were expecting Manifestation of the Qaim. Qaim is a promised one of Islam, who according to traditions, will come to establish true religion again, after it becomes corrupted. There are many prophecies about Him in Islam.
The Bab, who appeared just before Bahaullah claimed to be the Qaim. Then after the Bab was executed, Bahaullah claimed to be the next Manifestation of the Qaim. Qaim means the One who rises, and in Quran even God is said to be Qaim. It is a term, which according to Bahai Concept of Oneness of prophets, can be the name of any of the Messengers and Manifestations of God. According to Shia Traditions, Qaim will live 120 years, and when He disappears, He reappears in the form of a 33 years old man. When the Bab was executed, Bahaullah was 33 years old. The 120 years life span of Qaim, is an allusion to the number of years, His mission is completed. The Bab appeared in 1844, and in 1963, Universal House of Justice was established, as the last thing to mark completion of Religion of Bahai faith. From 1844 to 1963, there are 120 years, thus fulfilling the prophecy.
How about in Sunni traditions? What are the Baha'i connections to their prophecies?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
How about in Sunni traditions? What are the Baha'i connections to their prophecies?
This is an example of Sunni Hadith:

the following Hadith from Sahih Bukhari. Narrated Abu Huraira:

"The people said,

"O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'"-Sahih Bukhari 1:770
 
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