Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

[Dawnofhope]

I think that’s where you and I differ. I don’t think one has to like someone in order to love and appreciate her or him.

Yes. Agree to disagree. I have often heard the phrase you can love people but you don’t have to like them. Sounds like a great excuse for not loving people, but to imagine you really are.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I was just an extension of what had been happening for thousands of years. Not a good sign for reconciliation, is it.

It would appear hard to reconcile for sure. Yet it was Christian countries that were instrumental in establishing the nation of Israel. Beyond that was the establishment of institutions that would enable unprecedented levels of global cooperation.

 

[stvdv]

15 jul 2018 stvdv 017 78
Interesting conversation: Different views of course arise when having different definitions of Love

People easily say "I Love ....". Below is My definition based on my interpretation of scriptures:
1) Love God with whole your heart
2) Love thy neighbor as thyself [equal to first]
3) God Loves unconditional.

In above context? ..... "Like/Dislike" = conditional

"Love" is non-dual [Advaita], unconditional
"Like" is dual [Dvaita], conditional

When I am in "non-dual" state, I will have no likes/dislikes. There is only Love.
In that state I can't say: "I love him" AND at the same time "I don't like him"

There is another possible answer: why would reconciliation be either necessary or desirable?

Because we share our humanity and the earth. Religion can be a major contributor to misunderstanding and conflict.

I'm not suggesting the two religions merge btw. That would not be possible. I think individual adherents of both religions can make much more effort to better understand each other.

Yes, it can. But reconciliation isn’t necessary to solve that issue.

I’m not sure what your point is. Would you mind clarifying?

Sure. We can (and should) learn that the whole is greater than just our perception. I don’t have to like other cultures in order to appreciate that they are as valid as my own. Reconciliation isn’t necessary. Diversity is, I think, the greater path.

I see. Acceptance and tolerance of others different from ourselves is an important first step. I believe we should love both our neighbours and enemies and see our enemies as friends. To achieve that we need to ‘like’ others and have some empathy towards them, not just tolerate them. Anyway thanks for responding.

I think that’s where you and I differ. I don’t think one has to like someone in order to love and appreciate her or him.

Yes. Agree to disagree. I have often heard the phrase you can love people but you don’t have to like them. Sounds like a great excuse for not loving people, but to imagine you really are.

 

[sojourner]

15 jul 2018 stvdv 017 78
Interesting conversation: Different views of course arise when having different definitions of Love

People easily say "I Love ....". Below is My definition based on my interpretation of scriptures:
1) Love God with whole your heart
2) Love thy neighbor as thyself [equal to first]
3) God Loves unconditional.

In above context? ..... "Like/Dislike" = conditional

"Love" is non-dual [Advaita], unconditional
"Like" is dual [Dvaita], conditional

When I am in "non-dual" state, I will have no likes/dislikes. There is only Love.
In that state I can't say: "I love him" AND at the same time "I don't like him"

Again, I disagree. “Like” is an emotional preference. “Love” is an attitude. I can choose to love someone, even if I don’t prefer their company. I can love them, even if they like to watch sports all the time and I like to write poetry. We may not hang out, but can respect their position and their humanity.

 

[stvdv]

15 jul 2018 stvdv 017 80

Again, I disagree. “Like” is an emotional preference. “Love” is an attitude. I can choose to love someone, even if I don’t prefer their company. I can love them, even if they like to watch sports all the time and I like to write poetry. We may not hang out, but can respect their position and their humanity.

I have different definition of "Love", so obvious we can't agree [which is fine for me]:
"Love" is a Divine Attribute not a human attitude. Human love can be "attachment to children, mother love, spouse love". Spiritual Love is free from (these) attachments.
"Like" is a human preference.

So let's agree to disagree on this one [You are right with your set of definitions, and I am right with my set of definitions]

 

[sojourner]

15 jul 2018 stvdv 017 80

I have different definition of "Love", so obvious we can't agree [which is fine for me]:
"Love" is a Divine Attribute not a human attitude. Human love can be "attachment to children, mother love, spouse love". Spiritual Love is free from (these) attachments.
"Like" is a human preference.

So let's agree to disagree on this one [You are right with your set of definitions, and I am right with my set of definitions]

If love is free of attachments, then it should not matter whether you like someone or not. Love without attachment (and I believe you’re correct in that definition) doesn’t depend upon “like” in order to be available.

I doubt I’d like Hitler. But I can love Hitler nonetheless.

 

[stvdv]

If love is free of attachments, then it should not matter whether you like someone or not. Love without attachment (and I believe you’re correct in that definition) doesn’t depend upon “like” in order to be available.

I doubt I’d like Hitler. But I can love Hitler nonetheless.

When you are in that "Love" state, like/dislike does not exist. So the issue never pops up "it does not matter whether you like or not".
My Master put his hand for quite a long time on my head, and afterwards I experienced like/dislike was gone. There was no like/dislike when I was walking around.
I think that was what Jesus meant saying "Do not judge". When all judgment stops then like/dislike stops. But that is hard work to get there.

So, like you, I also "doubt I'd like Hitler", and for sure "I don't like what he did"
So, I cannot say "I love Hitler", but I do agree that this is the goal "Love Hitler"
If you manage "Love Hitler" without any like/dislike you finished the Game IMO

 

[Dawnofhope]

If love is free of attachments, then it should not matter whether you like someone or not. Love without attachment (and I believe you’re correct in that definition) doesn’t depend upon “like” in order to be available.

I doubt I’d like Hitler. But I can love Hitler nonetheless.

Nearly 95% of Germany identified as Christian at the time of Hitler’s election to power. Do you think the Christian’s collective understanding of what their faith taught about love was misguided? What of those Christians attitude towards the Jews. Many clearly didn’t like the Jews. Do you think they still ‘loved’ the Jews regardless?

 

[sojourner]

Nearly 95% of Germany identified as Christian at the time of Hitler’s election to power. Do you think the Christian’s collective understanding of what their faith taught about love was misguided? What of those Christians attitude towards the Jews. Many clearly didn’t like the Jews. Do you think they still ‘loved’ the Jews regardless?

I can’t speak to that; I wasn’t there. I do know quite a bit about the German Kulturgeschichte of that time period, and I know that many German citizens simply did not have access to information. I know the churches were quiet about the genocide. I know the propaganda was rampant and intense, to the point that post-war German language underwent a shift, because the people felt they couldn’t trust words any longer.

Let me explain it this way. I don’t like rap culture. I don’t listen to rap music; most likely never will. I probably have no reason to ever hang with rappers, or have much (if anything) in common with many fans of rap music. They are they and I am me. But I love them, because they are fellow human beings, and I will defend their rights, and respect their artistic endeavors (so long as it’s not derogatory), even if I don’t care much for it.

 

[stvdv]

Nearly 95% of Germany identified as Christian at the time of Hitler’s election to power. Do you think the Christian’s collective understanding of what their faith taught about love was misguided? What of those Christians attitude towards the Jews. Many clearly didn’t like the Jews. Do you think they still ‘loved’ the Jews regardless?

I never thought of it in that way "95% of Germany identified as Christian at the time of Hitler’s election to power"
So, with my definition of Love, at least 50% didn't have Love, else you would have known "not to choose Hitler"
Good to be humbled now and then, and remember we still have to grow a lot on our spiritual journey.
Thanks important stats. I need not be a visionair to see that "Hitler" can or has get up, without 95% noticing this

 

[CG Didymus]

I can’t speak to that; I wasn’t there. I do know quite a bit about the German Kulturgeschichte of that time period, and I know that many German citizens simply did not have access to information. I know the churches were quiet about the genocide. I know the propaganda was rampant and intense, to the point that post-war German language underwent a shift, because the people felt they couldn’t trust words any longer.

Let me explain it this way. I don’t like rap culture. I don’t listen to rap music; most likely never will. I probably have no reason to ever hang with rappers, or have much (if anything) in common with many fans of rap music. They are they and I am me. But I love them, because they are fellow human beings, and I will defend their rights, and respect their artistic endeavors (so long as it’s not derogatory), even if I don’t care much for it.

For me a good comparison is what the Christians in the U.S. are doing. Some are probably on both sides of the issue of the people from Central America seeking asylum. The President has labeled them as rapists and gang members. Some Christians might support the President because he says he's anti-abortion. So I wonder what they say about his immigration policies?

Some Christians are outraged by what the Administration has done to these people and are protesting and trying to help these people. If this was Nazi Germany I get the feeling that those people would have been rounded up and put away somewhere. Lucky for them, this is not Nazi Germany.

I wonder also, what Baha'is did in Nazi Germany? I wonder what they are doing in the U.S.? They have answers but can't apply them, because they can't get involved with politics. So I really do wonder what they did in Germany? Did they fight in the war? Did they try and hide Jews or in someway help them? I would hope so, since Baha'is say that deeds not words should be your adorning.

And as far as rap goes. Rap haters will soon die off. Just like rock and roll haters died off. But for now, while I still have breath... Long Live Rock and Roll!

 

[sojourner]

For me a good comparison is what the Christians in the U.S. are doing. Some are probably on both sides of the issue of the people from Central America seeking asylum. The President has labeled them as rapists and gang members. Some Christians might support the President because he says he's anti-abortion. So I wonder what they say about his immigration policies?

Some Christians are outraged by what the Administration has done to these people and are protesting and trying to help these people. If this was Nazi Germany I get the feeling that those people would have been rounded up and put away somewhere. Lucky for them, this is not Nazi Germany.

I wonder also, what Baha'is did in Nazi Germany? I wonder what they are doing in the U.S.? They have answers but can't apply them, because they can't get involved with politics. So I really do wonder what they did in Germany? Did they fight in the war? Did they try and hide Jews or in someway help them? I would hope so, since Baha'is say that deeds not words should be your adorning.

And as far as rap goes. Rap haters will soon die off. Just like rock and roll haters died off. But for now, while I still have breath... Long Live Rock and Roll!

Yes, it’s a good comparison, with the caveat that the current “administration’s” propaganda machine isn’t as insidious as was Nazi Germany’s.

And yes: long live rock n roll!

 

[Dawnofhope]

I can’t speak to that; I wasn’t there. I do know quite a bit about the German Kulturgeschichte of that time period, and I know that many German citizens simply did not have access to information. I know the churches were quiet about the genocide. I know the propaganda was rampant and intense, to the point that post-war German language underwent a shift, because the people felt they couldn’t trust words any longer.

Let me explain it this way. I don’t like rap culture. I don’t listen to rap music; most likely never will. I probably have no reason to ever hang with rappers, or have much (if anything) in common with many fans of rap music. They are they and I am me. But I love them, because they are fellow human beings, and I will defend their rights, and respect their artistic endeavors (so long as it’s not derogatory), even if I don’t care much for it.

The document Dabru Emet was issued by over 220 rabbis and intellectuals from all branches of Judaismin 2000 as a statement about Jewish-Christian relations. This document states,

"Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon. Without the long history of Christian anti-Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out. Too many Christians participated in, or were sympathetic to, Nazi atrocities against Jews. Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities. But Nazism itself was not an inevitable outcome of Christianity.“

 

[Dawnofhope]

For me a good comparison is what the Christians in the U.S. are doing. Some are probably on both sides of the issue of the people from Central America seeking asylum. The President has labeled them as rapists and gang members. Some Christians might support the President because he says he's anti-abortion. So I wonder what they say about his immigration policies?

Some Christians are outraged by what the Administration has done to these people and are protesting and trying to help these people. If this was Nazi Germany I get the feeling that those people would have been rounded up and put away somewhere. Lucky for them, this is not Nazi Germany.

I wonder also, what Baha'is did in Nazi Germany? I wonder what they are doing in the U.S.? They have answers but can't apply them, because they can't get involved with politics. So I really do wonder what they did in Germany? Did they fight in the war? Did they try and hide Jews or in someway help them? I would hope so, since Baha'is say that deeds not words should be your adorning.

And as far as rap goes. Rap haters will soon die off. Just like rock and roll haters died off. But for now, while I still have breath... Long Live Rock and Roll!

http://bahaiteachings.org/in-the-morning-you-will-be-shot

http://bahaiteachings.org/bahais-and-the-nazis

 

[CG Didymus]

http://bahaiteachings.org/in-the-morning-you-will-be-shot

http://bahaiteachings.org/bahais-and-the-nazis

Thanks, I think I heard the author, David Langness, speak back in the 70's or 80's.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks, I think I heard the author, David Langness, speak back in the 70's or 80's.

The whole issue of Nazi Germany, the Holocaust, and religion is a delicate matter.

 

[bitehoney]

There are many wooden, stone and leather scratchings, scrawlings, drawings, doodlings and scribblings and etchings in the middle east All discovered by archaeologists in the 18 th and 19 century

We find that after the rise of Father Mohammad - in 700 AD - many, many things in the Middle East are being suddenly created and found - that mention the Qedarites and Nebatians and Ishmael.

Many details ( most of all, that contradict one another ) have been found -

Such modern books as " The Samaritan book Asaṭīr VIII - has no MANUSCRIPTS or PRE MOHAMMAD SCRIPTS, DOCUMENTS or evidence of existence that show where or how these 18 th and 19 th century stories were originated.

They were all codified, molded, invented and fabricated after the 7 th Century/. The Samaritan book Asaṭīr VIII is not a historical book. It is nothing but an 18 - 19 century invented book of fables.

There is no evidence, no photos, no documentation, no notes, no descriptions and ARTIFACTUAL EVIDENCE OF THIS BOOKS MANUSCRIPTS - that reach beyond the 7 th Century and probably NOTHING of most of this book - exists before the 18 th and 19 century.. concerning - The Samaritan book Asaṭīr VIII

The Samaritan book Asaṭīr VIII - makes claims about Ishmael and things that He and His sons were actively doing that were supposed to have been recorded before Mohammad.
Outside of the Bible - THERE IS NOTHING - Existing - before Prophet Mohammad in any place on the planet that show or demonstrate that a people called ISHMAELITES existed on earth.

Yes there is a few historians around the middle east and Italy - from around the time of the first century that mention a historical mythical people called the Kedarites, Nebatians and Duma from Ishmael ( FROM THE BIBLE )

But NOT A SINGLE ONE - these Historians know or mention of a currently existing ( REAL TIME ) CURRENT LOCATION / or current existence -Of A REAL TIME - LIVE RECORDED EVENT - of anyone that is connected to Ishmael or His sons. - Who are known to exist - during the first century. ?

However, there is no proof when these claims were written and NO PROOF that anyone who was called ISHMAEL, KEDAR, NEBO, DUMA or anyone that had the same sound or similar sound as that to like any of Ishmael's sons were related to the Ishmael who was the son of Abraham.

It is all asumption…. Nothing mentions the Ishmael of Abraham.

it is like someone simply doing nothing but taking a walk in the Arabian desert 4,000 years after Ishmael existed and they see a stone or a tree or a parchment that has the word that sounds like Ishmael upon it - and they suddenly assume and imagine that this is the Son of Abraham.

It is all assumption. There is NOTHING - NO PROOF }{ outside of the Bible }{ - that anyone on the planet who were called ISHMAEL, KEDAR, NEBO, DUMA - were related to the SAME Ishmael who was the son of Abraham. Just because a Muslim find a rock with a name that sounds similar or has the similar characters or sounds - like Ishmael, Kedar or Dumah - they began to invent and mound up, pile and compile and fold together and FABRICATE many additional claims about the area and make a whole report or a begin to make a whole book about how this character was somehow the Person of the Ishmael and His children in the Bible. It is all assumed. FAKE.

NOTHING. - It is all the figment of ones Imagination, assumption, and fantasy.

Mohammad - knew nothing about the Descendants and ancestry of Ishmael or any of His sons. - All of these books, narratives, assumptions and assertions were fabricated and made up after Mohammad.

And the only evidence that You will ever, ever, ever show - are post-Mohammad artifacts and 18 and 19-century booklets and claims. This is all that exists.

The World of the Middle East ( outside of the Bible ) left behind absolutely nothing ( OF A REAL TIME - LIVE RECORDED RECORD ) that mentions anyone { living and known of Ishmaelites } - at that very moment from Ishmael who was from the Abraham Of The Bible. It is all a fantasy that You prop up, based on circular reasoning and Pre-existing Biblical manuscripts.

The People called Ishmaelites are not even mentioned in the Bible after the reign of King David.

Yes, there is the region, lands, and areas where KEDAR, NEBO and DUMA had once lived in. But outside of the Bible RECORD - there is no proof or mention that ANY people living in these lands are related to Ishmael from Abraham.
You will find nothing, outside of the Bible.

Mohammad said that anyone who claims to know my ancestors has lied.

Ibn Ishak was accused of being guilty of forgery and fabricating false genealogies.

But - Mohammed said that He knew nothing about his ancestors until Al-Nather Bin Kinaneh, Mohammad demanded that anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.

Mohammed knew about the genealogy of his family or tribe going back around 510 years. - There have been thousands of Ibn Ishak's who have invented and fabricated genealogies and fake books, fake manuscripts, fake artifacts, and fraudulent stories. - ALL OF THEM - do not have any evidence of a real-time " live recorded event " or a preserved manuscript record existing before Mohammad. Not a single name of the Descendants of Ishmael or the sons of Ishmael are mentioned in the Quran. - There is not a single person living at Mohammad's time who is named after Ishmael or any of His sons.

All of these names suddenly begin to re -surface - after His revelations, prophecies and spiritual claims.

 

[shunyadragon]

The document Dabru Emet was issued by over 220 rabbis and intellectuals from all branches of Judaismin 2000 as a statement about Jewish-Christian relations. This document states,

"Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon. Without the long history of Christian anti-Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out. Too many Christians participated in, or were sympathetic to, Nazi atrocities against Jews. Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities. But Nazism itself was not an inevitable outcome of Christianity.“

I want to add that before WWII antisemitism and anti-Jewish sentiments were very strong in the USA.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I want to add that before WWII antisemitism and anti-Jewish sentiments were very strong.

Thanks Frank,

It’s great to have your breadth of knowledge here on the forum.

Speaking of the Jews, it was quite a scrap on that Islam thread by Ellen. I was weighing up whether to roll up my sleeves and join in or just grab some popcorn and watch from a far lol

Seems to have calmed down now.

 

[lukethethird]

This question is mostly for adherents of Abrahamic Faiths though I have left it open for all to answer and put it in the general debate section to enable us to discuss freely and frankly.

I would consider the answer to be yes, no, or maybe

'Yes' if we are prepared to see God as transcendant above man made concepts. I see God is an unknowable essence. His essence can never be understood by man, anymore than the fetus can conceive of life outside the womb. God wants us to know and worship Him, so He reveals Himself through the likes of Christ and Muhammad. Man listens, thinks he's understood, then creates a theology he sincerely believes is founded on the words God has revealed, but in reality his comprehension is veiled by his vain imaginations.

'No' if we believe that scholars and religious leaders of each religion have faithfully contructed the best theology to represent the true spirit and intent of their founder. If that were true then it would be impossible for the contradictions within Islam and Christianity to be resolved. Either one or the other or both would be false.

I lean strongly towards yes. There is just One God and He has revealed Himself through both Jesus and Muhammad.

Questions, comments, discussion and debate as you will.

Before I lean towards yes or no, a question: the Christian God knows everything, what does Allah claim to know?