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Can I have both?

do you think......

  • 4. Neither could be true?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 6. You don’t know?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    33

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
You can believe that a story is beautiful without thinking that it’s factually true.
Indeed.
Also, I can see the beauty in the story, while thinking the spiritual facts are true.
I never saw beauty in the story when I struggled with the literal belief of it, and the contradictions between 1 and 2. And I never could really even believe it, since I’m more of a math/science person.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
1. I believe in evolution and I believe the earth is billions of years old. This is what I was taught and the
evidence is overwhelming to accept it.
2. I also believe the 7 day creation story from Genesis. It’s a beautiful story filled with incredible information.

My mind’s understanding of these things is in harmonious peace.

Does anyone else feel the same?
If not, do you think you could get there?
Well I don't believe in evolution because it's factual, so there's no need or reason for belief.

I think the Genesis creation is a mythological story.

What I found rather strange is why they refer to a 7-Day creation period and attempts to inflate that figure.

Even with the Bible verse stating one day is as a thousand years, which most Christians use to expand the 7-Day creation period, that still is only seven thousand years.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I think Adam and Eve were literal people. And still I see nothing preventing the creation story and evolution from both being true.

*Eden could be a another universe or dimension entirely. See Multiverse Theory and Pocket Universe.

There is no doubt that adam and eve lived, although they we're in all probability not called adam and eve due to language development. Nor did they live in the same time period.

Genetically mDNA eve, the mother of us all lived around 200,000 years ago.

Whereas y chromosome adam, the father of us all lived between 120,000 and 160,000 years ago.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
There is no doubt that adam and eve lived, although they we're in all probability not called adam and eve due to language development. Nor did they live in the same time period.

Genetically mDNA eve, the mother of us all lived around 200,000 years ago.

Whereas y chromosome adam, the father of us all lived between 120,000 and 160,000 years ago.

Thats evolution on its own. So yes.

But Adam and Eve from Genesis also happened in the literal sense. Literal people who lived and breathed.

There is nothing preventing both from being true.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Indeed.
Also, I can see the beauty in the story, while thinking the spiritual facts are true.
What's a "spiritual fact?"

I never saw beauty in the story when I struggled with the literal belief of it, and the contradictions between 1 and 2. And I never could really even believe it, since I’m more of a math/science person.
So you agree that it's not literally true?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think Adam and Eve were literal people. And still I see nothing preventing the creation story and evolution from both being true.

*Eden could be a another universe or dimension entirely. See Multiverse Theory and Pocket Universe.
Then the story wouldn't make sense for different reasons.

Thematically, it's about explaining the significance of Earth, its form, and humanity's role in this creation. Saying that the events literally happened, but on some other planet in a parallel dimension completely undermines this point of the story.

If it's about Earth, the message of the story is, "you belong here, and this is your place in the creation as determined by God." If it's not about Earth, the message is "you don't belong here at all. God made you to fit into sone othet creation, not the one on Earth."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There is no doubt that adam and eve lived, although they we're in all probability not called adam and eve due to language development. Nor did they live in the same time period.

Genetically mDNA eve, the mother of us all lived around 200,000 years ago.

Whereas y chromosome adam, the father of us all lived between 120,000 and 160,000 years ago.
"Y chromosomal Adam" and "mitochondrial Eve" weren't the only humans living at their respective times, and humans living today would have been descended from some of these other contemporaries of "Adam" and "Eve," so they actually fail as "Adam" and "Eve."
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your thoughtful response.

My belief in evolution is only as it occurs within a species. I do not believe a new species can evolve from a different one.
I do believe God created humans in His image (not literally).
However, if God also created evolution to allow species to evolve into different ones, I have no problem with that either. It really makes no difference.

Also, I see no problem with a big bang or any other theory for creating the universe. God is omnipotent, meaning there is nothing he cannot do, in any way He chooses.

Any thoughts.
" I do not believe a new species can evolve from a different one."
"if God also created evolution to allow species to evolve into different ones, I have no problem with that either."

It doesn't seem as if you know what you believe, because it changes from one paragraph to another.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Thematically, it's about explaining the significance of Earth, its form, and humanity's role in this creation. Saying that the events literally happened, but on some other planet in a parallel dimension completely undermines this point of the story.

Huh? Nobody is saying that rofl. :tearsofjoy:
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Thats evolution on its own. So yes.

But Adam and Eve from Genesis also happened in the literal sense. Literal people who lived and breathed.

There is nothing preventing both from being true.

Apart from DNA
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
If it's about Earth, the message of the story is, "you belong here, and this is your place in the creation as determined by God." If it's not about Earth, the message is "you don't belong here at all. God made you to fit into sone othet creation, not the one on Earth."

Genesis is about the creation of reality not solely the Earth. So every star, planet, moon, galaxy etc.

Eden is like a dimensional pocket. It is accessible from Earth technically but God sealed it away so we can never find it or access it even if we did. Eden is solely about Adam and Eve and their story. At least until they are expelled from Eden which when that happens they join the rest of humanity on Earth.

Adam and Eve' s story is not about the creation of mankind. It's about the creation of a single family. It is this family's lineage we follow through the entire OT.

Mankind In general (all ethnicities all over the rest of the world) was created on the 6th day. These are the people Cain and Seth married an started families with.

Adam and Eve was not even created till after the 7th day when God rested. So sometime on or after the 8th day, time is weird with God.

So 1 "day" with God could be 1,000 years as we know it, 10,000 years, 100,000 years, 1,000,000, 10,000,000, 100,000,000 years it's all pretty much the same for God.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
"Y chromosomal Adam" and "mitochondrial Eve" weren't the only humans living at their respective times, and humans living today would have been descended from some of these other contemporaries of "Adam" and "Eve," so they actually fail as "Adam" and "Eve."

Yes, other humans existed, naming them Adam and Eve does not mean they were first but that every person tested descernds from these 2 lines.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Nobody's saying what?

What you are proposing. How you came to the conclusion that Eden was on a separate planet baffles me.

* edit: I guess I should clarify. How you came to the conclusion that you thought that I was proposing Eden as being on a separate planet, baffles me.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, other humans existed, naming them Adam and Eve does not mean they were first but that every person tested descernds from these 2 lines.
I've never heard someone who believes in Adam and Eve describe them that way. I'm more familiar with things like this:

For the faithful in Christ cannot accept this view, which holds that either after Adam there existed men on this earth, who did not receive their origin by natural generation from him, the first parent of all; or that Adam signifies some kind of multitude of first parents;
http://inters.org/evolution-and-monogenism
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thanks for your response Deeje. I always like hearing from you.
One reason, you make sensible comments. Another, after studying most of the Christian religions, I have found that JW probably my favorite.

Thanks Gerry, I really appreciate that. :)

But, I cannot get to the belief of humans in our material bodies inheriting an eternal earth. Just doesn’t make sense to me.

I have been doing a lot of research on stem cell therapy lately and it has explained a lot to me concerning the human body's ability to renew and regenerate itself. This therapy is proving that it is possible for the body to heal itself with a very simple procedure.
Nature also demonstrates its ability to keep recycling and regenerating....and has been doing so for eons of time.

When you read Genesis, you see that death is not even mentioned for humankind *except* as a penalty for disobedience. That means....if the first humans had obeyed God's command not to eat of that one fruit in the garden, they would never have experienced the penalty......loss of God's favour, loss of physical perfection, degeneration and death. And knowing how the body is designed to renew and regenerate itself perpetually, it is not hard to see how God's first purpose, (to have a race of creatures, reflecting his qualities, to act as his representatives on earth) was to keep them alive to carry that out forever. He provided the means to do so...."the tree of life" was there to partake of freely, but after the pair had disobeyed, access to this means to keep them alive, was barred. (Genesis 3:3; 20-24) They never got it back.

I believe God made us in His image, which is spiritual in nature.
That is our image (male and female are irrelevant). Why would we desire or need a material body or planet forever?

Jehovah is a creator. It is obvious from the scriptures that he has a spiritual family already. There are millions of spirit sons, who inhabit the realm where he resides.....so why would he need more? Why would he create lower creatures to inhabit a material planet, only to have them die in order to go to heaven? That would make no sense to me. We are material beings with a spiritual nature. We are not designed to die, but made for a whole other life.

This material part of creation is an extension of God's creativity and love. You only have to look at the amazing variety of living things on this earth to understand how he loves to create....and look at the vastness of his universe! What if he has in mind to inhabit millions of other planets with living things? As you said, he has no limits.

It would make sense to me that, if this planet is the beginning of his material ventures, then his sovereignty is paramount as a platform for all future creation. If he doesn't get things sorted here first, as regards humans made in his image respecting his laws, the proper use of free will, and setting precedents for all creation to come, then there is no point in taking it further until that is accomplished. His angelic sons are included in this exercise because the first rebel was an angel.

Don't forget that this deceitful enemy is out to obscure God's purpose and make a nonsense out of worshiping a God that requires obedience. This enemy promotes everything that God hates. It was he who deceived the woman into taking something that was forbidden to them, and she in turn tempted her husband into rebellion as well. Free will was corrupted by deception and selfishness. This all had to be settled because, unless it was, free will would be a curse instead of the blessing it was meant to be.

Second problem with JW, they make you knock on people’s doors and I’m a bit introverted.:mad:

I understand. But you know something funny....? Just about everyone who has studied the Bible with us, says that the preaching work is something they could never do.....but something amazing happens when God's spirit is involved.

Jesus told his disciples that 'the gospel' would be preached in all the world (Matthew24:14)...this wasn't an option for them, but rather it was actually a command. He said...."Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

Since Jesus said that he would be "with" his disciples in this work, then he would provide the means to carry it out. As the one who could pass on God's spirit to others, it is this powerful force that overcomes any human tendency to shrink back in fear.

To give you a personal example (one of many)......
I had a lady who was living in a small country town. She too was a little introverted and said she could never go out preaching, especially in her small community, so I invited her to go out preaching in a larger town nearby. She nervously accepted. After a morning of warm conversations with quite a few people, she was all fired up. She asked if we could go out again the next day....this time in her small town. Such is the power of God's spirit. It is his work, not ours.

I believe that God can give us, not only the knowledge to preach one united message all over the world, but also give us the courage to do a very unnatural thing. Most people are not as negative as you might think. We don't expect all to be kind, and I have encountered some very nasty people, (John 15:18-21) but for the most part we are not there to argue, we are there to impart a message of peace and hope for the future.

In line with what Jesus said in Matthew 10:11-15....

11 “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

We are to search for those who are searching for God....just as Jesus did. He didn't say to search for those who have already made up their minds.....but he went to the "lost sheep", understanding why they were lost. I believe that God helps us to find lost sheep too. ;)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
How so?

Explain in detail. This should be interesting!

So you want a 4 year genetics university course in a forum post, yes this should be interesting but its not going to happen other than saying mitochondrial dna can be traced back to a single woman who lived around 200,000 years ago. There is no other time in human history where this generic bottleneck occurs.

The same is valid for the y chromosome but around 50,000 years +/- later.

Edit: text in bold edited to fix spelling errors
 
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