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Can Gay's change?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Ardhanariswar, Jul 27, 2004.

  1. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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  2. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    I don't think homosexuals can change their sexual preference. I say this because I, a heterosexual, and one who sees nothing wrong with homosexuality, still could not make myself be attracted to those of my own sex. If a heterosexual cannot change, it is reasonable to say that a homosexual cannot change either.
     
  3. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    lol. have you tried?
     
  4. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    LMAO, lets NOT get into that, okay?
     
  5. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Ummm, in general, no I do not believe people can just change their sexuality simply because they want to. I realize there are social and religious reasons why someone might want to, but I do not see any vaild reason for people trying to change their sexuality.
     
  6. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    "LMAO, lets NOT get into that, okay?"

    haha, no im serious! think about it. ive tried. well i actually dont want to change. cuz i find no reason, but i think it is possible. all in concentration, meditation, and dicipline of the body through the mind.

    a maize: never mind reason. but i think people can change if they concentrate.

    did u go to that link?
     
  7. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Yes, I went to the link. And I just have two words for it, "Christian propaganda"

    Sure, people can change things about themself if they concentrate, (or they can pretend to have changed, and to everyone else appear to have changed, but the desire is still within them), but what is the motivation for wanting to change? That seems like a more relevent question, don't you think?
     
  8. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    I don't think homosexuals can change their sexuality. I do think that some groups use Pavlovian tactics to try to change homosexuals. Like the Schick centers use to treat addictions. They condition you to stop liking something. They only change external behavior not basic internal workings.
     
  9. Mathematician

    Mathematician Reason, and reason again

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    I think a tragedy could change anyone. I heard a case where a man was "turned" homosexual after being sexually abbused by his mother and wife. Surely the opposite could happen?
     
  10. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Sure, there are people, I'm thinking of women in particular here, who after an abusive relationship with a man, choose, or turn to a relationship with another woman. These women are not generally the norm, however. But in order to have a sexaul relationship with someone, at least a fullfilling one, you need to be sexually attracted to that person. So were these women really homosexual all along, or bisexual? I don't know. But I do believe our sexuality is more complicated than switching it on or off as we want.
     
  11. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    From a previous post in answer to Sir Monks
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16678&postcount=148

    The strongest study todate (that I am aware of) for the "success' of reparative therapy the one conducted by Dr. Robert L. Spitzer. But the study does not support the idea of a "cure".

    From the article in Archives of Sexual Behavior, October 2003, vol. 32, no. 5,

    Found here[/url

    Quote:
    Abstract:
    Position statements of the major mental health organizations in the United States state that there is no scientific evidence that a homosexual sexual orientation can be changed by psychotherapy, often referred to as “reparative therapy.” This study tested the hypothesis that some individuals whose sexual orientation is predominantly homosexual can, with some form of reparative therapy, become predominantly heterosexual. The participants were 200 self-selected individuals (143 males, 57 females) who reported at least some minimal change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation that lasted at least 5 years. They were interviewed by telephone, using a structured interview that assessed same sex attraction, fantasy, yearning, and overt homosexual behavior. On all measures, the year prior to the therapy was compared to the year before the interview. The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year. Reports of complete change were uncommon. Female participants reported significantly more change than did male participants. Either some gay men and lesbians, following reparative therapy, actually change their predominantly homosexual orientation to a predominantly heterosexual orientation or some gay men and women construct elaborate self-deceptive narratives (or even lie) in which they claim to have changed their sexual orientation, or both. For many reasons, it is concluded that the participants' self-reports were, by-and-large, credible and that few elaborated self-deceptive narratives or lied. Thus, there is evidence that change in sexual orientation following some form of reparative therapy does occur in some gay men and lesbians.[/quote]

    It appears that bisexual is now the orientation norm for the majority of those undergoing "reparative" therapy.
     
  12. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    There would be a lot more science -- and hence a lot more certainty -- on this issue if the topic weren't so politicized. As it is, you are forced to betting. My bet is that sexual orientation is largely or predominantly formed before birth. That's the best sense I can make of what little science I've come across on the issue.
     
  13. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    I agree that homosexuality is largely formed before birth. in regard to rendering homosexuals, bisexual through reparative therapy, I wouldn't call that a repair. I think it is much less confusing being one way or the other.
     
  14. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Thanks for clarifying something for me. I've been slow and didn't catch that the term "reparative therapy" was based on the root word "repair". Seems there's more than a bit of propaganda in that term "reparative therapy". As if something actually needs to be repaired.
     
  15. Fra.Morelia

    Fra.Morelia Member

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    I think anyone can be changed, given the Clockwork Orange treatment. But there really isn't any morality in that at all.
    Sexuality is behavior. It can come from enviornment, preference, genetics, and any number of things. It is, however, vile to try and change someone who is not hurting anyone. Yes, VILE. Because in the end, you are trying to warp someones mind to conform with your ideals, and that, my friends, is mind rape. But i suppose it is what society is all about. Shoving it down your throat til you believe it... sad really. Truly sad.
     
  16. Sir Monks

    Sir Monks Member

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    Yes they can change especially after they get deliverance from the bondage that homosexuality has on their lifestyle and soul
     
  17. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    i believe homosexuality is just by the body. i mean, as souls, we are all the same, yet unique, if u get what i mean. since homosexuality is sexuality it is part of the body. the only thing is that all souls, no matter living in a hetero or homo body, can still love. because love is pure no matter what sexuality. since God is a form of Love, i dont think he cares. lol.
     
  18. civilcynic

    civilcynic Member

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    I don't believe there is a cut & dry line between homosexuality and heterosexuality but rather I think sexuality is a continuum. For example, on a scale of 1(completely heterosexual) to 10(completely homosexual), individuals will fall within that scale. Those at both extremes could never 'switch' to the other's lifestyle while those who fall somewhere in-between may do so based upon their personal experience in relationships.
     
  19. Irenicas

    Irenicas high overlord of sod all

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    Hang on a minute here! Aren't we ignoring the recent evidence about what CAUSES homosexuality and bisexuality in the first place? A gene has recently been discovered that is different in homosxual, bisexual, heterosexual, and transexual men and women. There is now quite a lot of eveidence that this is genetic. So, we can't change our sexuality, any more than we can change the rest of our genetic makeup.
     
  20. dolly

    dolly Member

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    I don't believe they can change. Why? No evidence that this is possible. Common sense (why on earth would someone choose to be gay? Life literally is hell for most gays until they can find a tolerant community/friendships/environment of sorts). Lastly - experience. I tried so hard to change. It reached the point where I was so desperate to change that I became suicidal. I never did accomplish it.




    Actually, the most striking evidence that homosexuality is not a choice, isn't necessarily a gene. There are genes which increase the chances of this happening, but the most likely cause is the environment hormones in the mother's womb (this would explain why identical twins don't necssarily have identical orientations). It was a study by Dr. Gunter Doerner (what a strange name ^_- ).



    Or that was their orientation previous to the study. Dr. Robert L. Spitzer never made sure that they were only homosexual, and after all "nearly 30% reported that they were having heterosexual relations 'regularly' (and others assumedly were having them less often) at the time they began therapy."

    And problems with the study:

    1)How is a "45 minute phone call" really evidence that they changed?

    2)"The findings were based entirely on the subjects' self-report (rather than, e.g., physiological measures of arousal), which research has shown is often very misleading."

    3)"Spitzer's study has not been subject to any peer review or other normal professional tests of validity." This extremely discredits the study.

    Problems with reparative therapy? It's highly dangerous. I'm not posting all the quotes here, because this post is long enough, but they are at the link at the bottom of this post.

    Quotes from the doctor himself?

    "In describing the study for CNN (May 9, 2001), Spitzer stated that 'Our sample was self-selected from people who already claimed they had made some change. We don't know how common that kind of change is. . . . I'm not saying that this can be easily done, or that most homosexuals who want to change can make this kind of change. I suspect it's quite unusual.'"

    "n an editorial to the Wall Street Journal (May 23, 2001), Spitzer stated that 'Some homosexuals appear able to change self-identity and behavior, but not arousal or fantasies; others can change only self-identity; and only a very few, I suspect, can substantially change all four. . . . In fact, I suspect the vast majority of gay people would be unable to alter by much a firmly established homosexual orientation.'"

    * Spitzer told the Advocate (July 17, 2001) that 'the kinds of changes my subjects reported are highly unlikely to be available to the vast majority" of GLBT people, and that only "a small minority" -- perhaps 3% -- might have a "malleable" sexual orientation. He also charged in that interview that his research was being "twisted by the Christian right.'"


    http://www.covenantnetwork.org/chgther.html


    EDIT: Like to reiterate - "perhaps 3% -- might have a 'malleable' sexual orientation..."

    Those three percent are probably bis. In all of the reports of his studies, I have never heard Spitzer mention bisexuals. This means he probably doesn't acknowledge their existence (many people who think homosexuality must be cured do not). So in actuality, there are probably no homs who can change.
     
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