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Featured Can explicit atheists ever really understand atheism?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Desert Snake, Jun 25, 2018.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    One thing I've noticed, is that of all non religious we'll say, or rather anti-theists, what not, explicit atheists seem to understand atheism, the least. This has even affected the very way that atheism is defined.

    Ie,
    'Know there is no god or gods'
    No, you're getting what you think you know, mixed up with know

    'No evidence for god or gods'
    No, you're getting what your perspective is, mixed up with a fact statement

    The only non god adherents who understand non god adherence, seem to be agnostics, and then it gets muddled with 'atheism', a claim to know that god or gods, doesn't exist, or isn't real.
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    What's an "explicit" atheist, and how do they differ from an unexplicit atheist?

    .
     
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  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    It appears that you still don't know the difference between atheism and agnosticism. The first is about belief and the second is about what one knows. There is no problem in being both. That is not "muddling".
     
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  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Makes the claim that god or gods doesn't exist, usually by an argument of evidence, however any argument could really be made, or not, for that claim. It's god or gods don't exist', and they claim to know that.
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    No, it is muddling. Because you don't know that 'know' is a belief. You don't understand the word usage.
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Using "know" for a belief is an error. It makes the word " know" almost meaningless. Your error is understandable since I have yet to meet a Christian that knows, though most claim to. There is a saying that you should remember:

    Knowledge is demonstrable, if you can't show it, you don't know it.
     
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  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Really! I have never heard of any atheist claiming to know god doesn't exist. Got any references or examples?
     
    #7 Skwim, Jun 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  8. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    As it happens, that's not true. To "know" something is not the same as to "believe" something. I recently posted a thread on this very subject. You can take a look at it here:

    Three Things that Might Help Us Think About What it Means "to Know Something"
     
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  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I do believe @ecco here has made that claim, though I may be conflating him with another. My apologies in advance if that is the case.
     
  10. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    Incidentally, (also to @Skwim ) an explicit atheist is an atheist who has a conception of gods but does not believe in them. It differs from implicit atheists who have no concept of gods and doesn't believe in them.
    Someone who lives in a remote tribal village who doesn't have any god concepts would be an implicit atheist.

    You're thinking of strong/gnostic atheists (as opposed to weak/agnostic atheists.) Strong atheism state that gods absolutely do not exist.
    Weak atheists do not believe in gods but do not claim to know they don't exist.

    Agnostic is not mutually exclusive from theism or atheism. As atheism and theism are a matter of belief, gnosticism and agnosticism are a matter of knowledge.

    Anti-theists can be agnostics too. They just believe theistic belief causes more harm than good. Heck I've even known some deistic anti-theists.
     
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  11. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    I know lots of atheists who claim to know God with a capitol G doesn't exist. Less that claim to know all gods of all concepts don't exist. But I do know some. There are some who have adopted Hawking's unified theory as meaning gods can't exist. There's nothing to be done that isn't explained by physical process. The only gods there are exist in the decreasing gaps of knowledge.

    I am not one of them.
     
    #11 ADigitalArtist, Jun 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  12. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Interestingly enough, When I Googled "explicit atheist" I came across the following:

    Strong Atheism
    The strong atheist, also known as an explicit atheist or a positive atheist, denies the existence of God or any other deities. This person’s views are based solely on what can be found to be true using the scientific method. Since the existence of God cannot be proven using science, the strong atheist concludes that God doesn’t exist.
    source

    .
     
  13. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    Some might use them interchangeably but that's not how they were coined or used in academic circles. (Neither is Scientism interchangeable either.) Rather that strong atheism is a type, but not the whole umbrella, of explicit atheism.
    Implicit and explicit atheism - Wikipedia

    That is, you can be explicit without being strong but you can't be strong without being explicit.
     
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  14. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I'd claim to know some God's don't exist. Just not all God's.
     
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  15. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    I think that's probably true of most people. Theistic and atheistic alike.
     
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  16. Ishmael

    Ishmael Member

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  17. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Indeed, yes. It gets lost sometimes when talking about umbrella claims or labels.
    I'm an agnostic atheist, but I'm not agnostic about particular God concepts.
     
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  18. Ishmael

    Ishmael Member

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  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    This is a better OP; easier understand.

    Let me get your logic. Talk with me here. ---Please converse.

    Atheist don't understand atheism relating to God's existence but agnostics do?

    1. First, problem one, no one has defined god in one specific description. No Hindu, no Abrahamic (kinda wish Muslims can say something), and in part, no Pagan. I think the only people I understand god is pantheism.

    But then that word is not completely defined by person. Believers can't even (some cant and others prefer not to) anything so far. All we have of gods existence is a claim and evidence making a confirmed bias over scripture of any god-religion, without connecting how the culture and practices then some how applies today. Yet, we don't use the same medical treatments as back then. I find that weird since they are both important.

    Even among christians the word god is mixed up. The problem starts with theists. You must have a distinct explanation of god-each of you-to judge whether god Does exist in the active world apart from the desires and minds of believers. The difference is Hindus get this. Some Pagans do. Christians don't.

    That's problem one.

    2. Problem two is not providing any connection outside your experience to life that we all understand as a common denominator of what fact and whats belief.

    Facts arent beliefs; beliefs arent facts. Christians (Since many other god-believers understand this; dont know about muslims and jews). Since beliefs arent facts, expression of those beliefs cannot be presented as facts to a diverse crowd of people.

    Unless its your opinion as a fact and kept at your opinion, god as a fact (abrahamic) is not a fact-is not connected to reality for the reason of problem one.

    3. Problem three is sacred scripture. Christians and Bahai do this. I don't see any other god-believer do outside their own group.

    Its counterproductive. Think about it. You say god exists; fine. You say this is why; fine-your belief. You say look at this book; we look at it. You say god exists by this book. We look puzzled.

    If we cannot understand your claim how in the world are we supposed to understand Bahaullah's claim nor the Jews and Muslims claim nor christians (jesus as god or not)l. It's out of the ballpark because of the other two problems. Scripture doesnt help because it was written so long ago and we cannot ask the people who wrote it, we have to talk to you as believers.

    Thats why the confirmation bias such as scripture does not work. But believers through it out anyway, as if your scriptures provide some automatic revelation of your truth. That does not make sense.

    Now to the atheist part

    In order for an atheist to say god exists (or an agnostic to say he doesnt know he does) is theist have to solve the problems above and give a proper and tangible (doesnt mean material) or logical explanation of what and who god is apart from your beliefs of how you define him as well las what people over three thousand years ago defines him. I side with jews since they don't define god. Everyone else tries to.

    So a atheist who does 100 percent believe god does not exist is logical because he can't say god does nor says he doesn't know if he doesn't have a proper definition to go off of in the first place

    Atheist just means lack of belief in god. People have their variations; but, that's the core of it. So, we can't change the word nor any other word thereby misinterpreting it. Unless there is a god beyond a concept and belief, by what means is this type of atheist wrong or misguided.

    Follow the logic not from your personal belief. That's another problem. Arguing from the wrong perspective or tool. You need to change it up a bit. Also, provide new insight rather than regurgitated ones.

    Agnosticism says they don't prove whether god exists or not. This, I don't understand, because there is no concrete definition, so which god do they exactly doesnt know exist. Its illogical. Atheist have more sense because you cant claim something exists when there is no tangible definition to which any evidence can be presented.

    So....

    That leaves me, as an atheist, with this conclusion

    God (abrahamic and Hindu) exists in the hearts of people not as external beings. Holy Spirit is said to be love and a comfortable. God is said to be a provider. Jesus had a mission to be a savior. No where in history do these things show up in a spiritual way.

    If it were fact, then the spirituality would be part of the history of christianity; it is not. Yes, there are stuff about christianity, but not stuff specific to supernatural events in a historical light. Can't prove god with history.

    1. So you must have concrete idea of god in order to defend your view against those who say otherwise

    2. Two, you guys need to decide whether you have a belief or a fact. We understand the subjectivity of beliefs. Once you say its a fact, then....

    3. Sacred scripture is counter productive. We can't just read Bahaullah's and the Apostles scripture and there ya go, we know everything spiritually. It doesnt work that way.

    I am an atheist; strong one, as they call it. Once you find what an atheist is, my definitions would change. I can't be a agnostic because I need to understand who or what I would be saying I don't know exists.

    Thank you for reading all this.
     
    #19 Unveiled Artist, Jun 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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