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Featured Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jeremiahcp, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Certified People sTabber

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    While that is true, we are still told, in the Bible, that a man who lies with man as he would a woman is to be put to death.
    Yes, and that is why we are best putting it down and replacing scriptures with reason and logic.
    It's a very good example, as the Bible says they are an abomination, they are to be killed, and their blood is on their hands.
     
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  2. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I lack faith, but anything's possible.

    We have a New Testament and an edited Old Testament, so yeah, it can be and has been for centuries.

    Why is wearing two types of fabric a sin?

    But ancient Christian churches had gay marriage, so clearly homophobia was a later development or something. After all, "if in Christ there is neither male nor female", then why does it matter what gender the partners are?

    Jesus said marriage doesn't exist in heaven anyway, so we argue about legalizing an institution Jesus didn't care for to begin with.

    The closest things are Jesus saying we should just deal with "eunuchs" and then there's the fact the "Beloved Disciple who Jesus loved best and could lie down on Jesus' lap and everything is John, not Mary ....

    I don't worship Moses, nor Paul.

    Yeah, a guy could screw another guy as long as you weren't the guy getting screwed. :)

    And how does it differ from everyone else being told their evil all our/their lives? I mean, my maternal grandparents were Southern Baptists. You could be a saint and you'd still deserve to burn in hell. :)

    Transphobia doesn't count as part of the discussion of Christians and homophobia?

    Why should that matter? People have no qualms of inventing dangers to justify hatred. See: consenting relationships with adult humans.

    Jesus told you SPECIFICALLY to treat others as you wish to be treated, to be kind to strangers, etc.
     
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  3. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    It should be possible, but I think progress will be along the lines of "two steps forward, one back" for awhile. On the one hand, younger Christians -- even younger Evangelicals -- tend to be significantly more tolerant than older Christians. But on the other hand, many or most Christians at least nominally rely more on scripture than on tradition to determine what Christianity should be -- and Christian scriptures contain some anti-LGBT sentiments. So there will probably always be elements in Christianity that are inspired to homophobia by Christian scriptures.
     
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  4. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I believe they can.
    I mean, they got past spontaneous generation
    they got past flat world
    they got past inter racial marriage
    the got past Earth being center of universe
     
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  5. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Fortunately, your opinion doesn't matter to the meaning of the label Christian. Like the racists of the past you'll just wind up being an embarrassment to the grandkids.
    Because Christianity simply means "whatever someone who identifies as Christian believes ".
    Tom
     
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  6. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    rotflmao

    that you think you speak for god is most comical
     
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  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Christianity means a person who follow Christ and the teachings of Christ.
    Note that Christ is the abbreviation for Christian, Christ = Christian.

    Notice what Christ has said, who do you suppose Christ is talking about, Remember
    Christ = Christian.
    Matthew 24:4-5,
    Verse 4--"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take you heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many"

    Christians are the only people who comes in the name of Christ = Christian?

    But then you have to distinguish who is a true Christian and the false Christian.

    For many shall come in the name of Christ and shall deceive many.
     
  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    No I do not speak for God, and
    why should I, When you have God's word.
    To go by.
     
  9. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I have no personal hang ups with you - notions like that are what I'm talking about with the assumption train. If you could drop that assumption train, productive conversations could happen (certainly, fewer derailments at least). I'm obviously not going away any time soon, and neither or you, so it seems like it'd be in the best interest to have a positive resolution. Like I said, the door is open when you want to use it.
     
  10. Jeremiahcp

    Jeremiahcp Well-Known Jerk

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    This is not relevant to the thread; the topic of this thread is not your personal beef with me. Please stay on topic.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I have not a clue as to what your talking about.
    I am giving my commit to the thread above. But how do you think I'm talking to you?
     
  12. Jeremiahcp

    Jeremiahcp Well-Known Jerk

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    Look at the post again, as I am not quoting you. It was not directed at you.
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I think you shouldn't make thoughtless and bigoted inferences from selective and self-serving input. Cultures learn, evolve and adapt. See, for example,


    See, also,


    Such articles would have read qualitatively differently just a few decades ago. I know of no sociological data suggesting a likely change in this trajectory.

    Your position is petulant ad hominem at best.
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Alot of people will say, the Bible is a thing of the pass, and shouldn't be taken as a reliable source.
    But yet the bible which was written so long ago, Yet is found in describing how people to day would be taking God's word lightly, trying to put logic and reason over what is written in the scriptures.
     
  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Here's a question, but in reverse.

    Can homosexualls move Beyond it's inherent christianphobia?
     
    #95 Faithofchristian, Aug 12, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  16. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Google Jesus Metropolitan Community Church.

    Here's a link to one in Indianapolis.
    https://lifejourney.church/

    Feel free to tell me why a
    "LifeJourney is called to serve, while seeking justice, for the oppressed and marginalized in our community and around the globe."
    is not a Christian church.
    I have been to services there. A little fundy for my Catholic tastes, but they're definitely Christian.
    Tom
     
  17. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Please be so kind as to present an example of this alleged "christianphobia"
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    ^ stupid
     
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  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    And you shouldn't throw insults like that around unless you can back them up. What's selective or self-serving about what I said?

    So you agree that Christian churches generally once held murderous attitudes toward homosexuality, but believe they've changed?

    I don't either. The extrinsic factors that got observant Christians - and Christian churches themselves - to stop their practice of executing homosexual people in the name of their religion aren't likely to go away any time soon.

    ... but those factors are extrinsic. Religions tend to become more moderate when they lose their power and when they have to actually work with people of differing beliefs. Take away those outside factors and we'd see the equilibrium we have now shift to a new equilibrium that has much worse consequences for LGBT people.

    And your position seems to be all outrage and no substance.
     
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  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    A view from a non-Christian

    As the word "homophobia" is regarded today it can mean several things; an
    "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals"
    Source: Merriam-Webster

    So, my first question would be, which of these is one addressing?

    "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality" [homosexual activities]
    OR
    "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuals" [people who are exclusively sexually attracted to people of their own sex.]
    As for the Bible, it focuses on the activity rather than the attraction.

    Romans 1:26-27
    26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    9-10 Surely you know that people who do wrong will not get to enjoy God’s kingdom. Don’t be fooled. These are the people who will not get to enjoy his kingdom: those who sin sexually, those who worship idols, those who commit adultery, men who let other men use them for sex or who have sex with other men, those who steal, those who are greedy, those who drink too much, those who abuse others with insults, and those who cheat.

    Leviticus 18:22
    22 “Men, you must not have sexual relations with another man as with a woman. That is a terrible sin!

    Leviticus 20:13
    13 “If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.

    1 Corinthians7:2
    But sexual sin is a danger, so each man should enjoy his own wife, and each woman should enjoy her own husband.
    [Not quite on point, but close enough I think.]
    Therefore, as I read it the Bible it evidently doesn't care if "people. . . are exclusively sexually attracted to people of their own sex," although, it does very much care if one engages in homosexual activities. So if there's going to be any homophobia going on it should be limited to "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against" the activity. Perhaps one of those "hate the sin and not the sinner" things. If a homosexual doesn't have same sex engagements, I assume he's pretty much home free as far as committing any sexual sin, and should not be feared, averted, or discriminated against. In which case homophobia would be an asinine reaction.

    So the question is, to what extent should the good Christian visit his fear, aversion, and discrimination on the practicing homosexual?
    As I see it, if one is committed to abiding by the Bible, especially Lev. 20:13, it isn't enough to let god handle the matter, but one should put such people (men anyway) to death. However, if one feels Christians are no longer bound by OT laws not reiterated in the NT then to what extent should the good Christian act on his fears, aversions, and discrimination against the practicing homosexual?

    In fairness to homosexuals, who according to all the studies I'm aware of, do not choose their sexual orientation, the question has to be asked: should it really be expected that they reign in their sexual urges? Although for some inexplicable reason the Bible really hates such goings-on, when it comes right down to the nuts and bolts of homosexual activity one has to wonder: why this hatred of two consenting people doing X with each other? From what I've read of the Bible it doesn't give any reason other than: god doesn't like it.

    And despite this groundless regard for homosexual activities (no reasons are given) the Bible has instilled homophobia---fear, aversion, and discrimination---in its believers. So, how much does the good Christian want to follow this irrational homophobia?

    My answer would be to ask oneself how fair is it to hold against them the right to express their unbidden sexual urges just because they're different from one's own? Do practicing homosexuals deserve to be discriminated against simply because they happened to have developed differently than most others? If you feel the Bible is inviolate then I assume you do feel your homophobia is well grounded. However, as a matter of loving fairness exactly how just is this?

    From where I sit looking at the OP question, "Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia," my answer would be, in large part yes it can---the fundies notwithstanding. And, it will easily survive the growing social acceptance of the LGBTQ community because more and more people are recognizing that LGBTs are just as much an asset to our society as straight folk, and that what they do in the bedroom simply doesn't matter, despite what the Bible says.

    Just as an aside. I believe it's issues such as this that are leading to the decline in Christianity in the USA and Canada. People seem to be thinking more on their own, embracing acceptance, and shifting away from the hate of the Bible.

    .





     
    #100 Skwim, Aug 12, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
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