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Can any of the 10 Commandments be violated ever?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Saw11_2000, Feb 15, 2005.

  1. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I`m no Talmud scholar but it would seem to me at least some of the dialogue in the talmud contradicts .
    The commentary is simply different rabbis giving their thoughts on it.
     
  2. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Really, the greatest command of the Mosaic Law was: "You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force." (Deuteronomy 6:5) Jesus said that the whole Law hangs upon this command, along with the command to love one’s neighbor. (Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40)

     
  3. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Why do the ten commandments get so much attention? In the beginning there were no laws so no sin but then God gave the first commandment to Adam and Eve to not eat fruit from that tree. After some time Moses received 10 more laws for the tribes of Israel and then more and more laws were given. There were actually over 600 laws for Israel till the cruixifiction of the Messiah, whose blood cleanses all from the bondage under the law. All commandments pre resurrection pertained only to the tribes of Israel. After the rez of Christ, only one law exists for Jew(believer) and Gentile(non-believer) and that is to believe in the name of Jesus Christ.
     
  4. Saw11_2000

    Saw11_2000 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know which one of the 10 Commandments I used, I think the Protestant version, because that is my former religion. Not sure though.
     
  5. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    The first "law" was to open the possibility of free will. If there were no prohibitions then there would be no possibility to choose to violate them. Then, after sin came into the world, the other laws were necessary to regulate conduct. If everyone were naturally good, there would be no need for rules on how to behave. It's because we are not naturally good that we have laws.

    Jack Miles gives an interesting analysis of the Cain and Abel story in his book, God: a Biography. When Cain murdered Abel, there was no "law" against murder. It had never been done before, and God even seems a little surprised by the event. It's only after the fact that God declares that murder is a bad thing. Murder would not have existed in a "good" creation and there would have been no laws against it. The fact that we have so many laws shows our fallen state.

    This theme runs thru Hinduism as well. Each creation has four ages, with each age getting more corrupt or fallen. In the first age, people naturally do what is right without need for guidance. In the second age, people need guidance but still do what is right when they have it. In our fourth and final age - the Kali yuga - we don't do what's right even with guidance. With each sucesssive age, more and more laws are needed.

    In the Christian context, one can argue that since Christ's sacrifice washed away our fallen state, we no longer need all those laws. At least not spiritually. Secularly, we still have quite a few.

    Another point to make is that we tend to see those 600+ laws given to the Israelites as spiritual laws and gasp at the sheer numbers. But those laws at that time were both spiritual and secular. They were meant to guide an entire community in their daily lives. I'm sure that the vast majority of secular societies have more than 600 laws on their books.
     
  6. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    True robtex the Talmud elaborates on the Laws set down in the Torah. For Jews, as always, its always a matter of observance of Mitzvot and how observant you choose to be. The conservatives aren't as observant as the Orthodox yet i'd bet they think of themselves as jewish as anyone else. i consider myself as keeping kosher, however, most obeservant jews wouldn't since i eat chicken and dairy together which is prohibited by rabbinical law.

    As for the Noahide laws....there seems to be more leniency on the rules there than on the mitzvot of the jews, at least in what i've read.

    Again though, you won't be sentenced to eternal damnation for missing a mitzvah...though you should continuously pursue obersvance of them.
     
  7. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Ya but why just pay attention to only 10 laws when there are over 600. Most of the Jews who pay attention to the laws do not even sacrifice animals anymore? Do you really get to pick and choose now?
     
  8. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    Understand that the animal sacrifices are very very specific and can not be performed anywhere but in the Beit HaMikdash and only be the Kohanim.
    Any other form of sacrafice would be wrong and unacceptable
    Also there is some debate that in the time of the third Temple whether there will be sacrafices or not. Some say we should hold to the commandments but others say there were never meant to be sacrafices in the first place but that G-d used them to heen the Jewish people off of idolitorous practices.
     
  9. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Understood. The sacrafices are needed because the blood was required to cover the sins. And the sins are from breaking the 600+ laws but since there are no more sacrifices how do you cover you sins let alone be in the presence of your God? Are you not living in death in bondage under your laws until the sacrafices resume?
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I hope this helps:-


    Called also simply THE COMMANDMENTS, COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, or THE DECALOGUE (Gr. deka, ten, and logos, a word), the Ten Words of Sayings, the latter name generally applied by the Greek Fathers.

    The Ten Commandments are precepts bearing on the fundamental obligations of religion and morality and embodying the revealed expression of the Creator's will in relation to man's whole duty to God and to his fellow-creatures. They are found twice recorded in the Pentateuch, in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, but are given in an abridged form in the catechisms. Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai, and by him made the ground-work of the Mosaic Law. Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity--love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5). He also simplified or interpreted them, e.g. by declaring unnecessary oaths equally unlawful with false, by condemning hatred and calumny as well as murder, by enjoining even love of enemies, and by condemning indulgence of evil desires as fraught with the same malice as adultery (Matthew 5). The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians.

    There is no numerical division of the Commandments in the Books of Moses, but the injunctions are distinctly tenfold, and are found almost identical in both sources. The order, too, is the same except for the final prohibitions pronounced against concupiscence, that of Deuteronomy being adopted in preference to Exodus. A confusion, however, exists in the numbering, which is due to a difference of opinion concerning the initial precept on Divine worship. The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of "Questions of Exodus" ("Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII", Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent. It is followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a single class of sins to be guarded against -- the reference to idols being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction forbidding the use of the Lord's Name in vain comes second in order; and the decimal number is safeguarded by making a division of the final precept on concupiscence--the Ninth pointing to sins of the flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods. Another division has been adopted by the English and Helvetian Protestant churches on the authority of Philo Judæus, Josephus, Origen, and others, whereby two Commandments are made to cover the matter of worship, and thus the numbering of the rest is advanced one higher; and the Tenth embraces both the Ninth and Tenth of the Catholic division. It seems, however, as logical to separate at the end as to group at the beginning, for while one single object is aimed at under worship, two specifically different sins are forbidden under covetousness; if adultery and theft belong to two distinct species of moral wrong, the same must be said of the desire to commit these evils.

    (Part)
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    The Supreme Law-Giver begins by proclaiming His Name and His Titles to the obedience of the creature man: "I am the Lord, thy God. . ." The laws which follow have regard to God and His representatives on earth (first four) and to our fellow-man (last six).


    • Being the one true God, He alone is to be adored, and all rendering to creatures of the worship which belongs to Him falls under the ban of His displeasure; the making of "graven things" is condemned: not all pictures, images, and works of art, but such as are intended to be adored and served (First).
    • Associated with God in the minds of men and representing Him, is His Holy Name, which by the Second Commandment is declared worthy of all veneration and respect and its profanation reprobated.
    • And He claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy (Third).
    • Finally, parents being the natural providence of their offspring, invested with authority for their guidance and correction, and holding the place of God before them, the child is bidden to honour and respect them as His lawful representatives (Fourth).
    The precepts which follow are meant to protect man in his natural rights against the injustice of his fellows.



    • His life is the object of the Fifth;
    • the honour of his body as well as the source of life, of the Sixth;
    • his lawful possessions, of the Seventh;
    • his good name, of the Eighth;
    • And in order to make him still more secure in the enjoyment of his rights, it is declared an offense against God to desire to wrong him, in his family rights by the Ninth;
    • and in his property rights by the Tenth.
    This legislation expresses not only the Maker's positive will, but the voice of nature as well--the laws which govern our being and are written more or less clearly in every human heart. The necessity of the written law is explained by the obscuring of the unwritten in men's souls by sin. These Divine mandates are regarded as binding on every human creature, and their violation, with sufficient reflection and consent of the will, if the matter be grave, is considered a grievous or mortal offense against God. They have always been esteemed as the most precious rules of life and are the basis of all Christian legislation.[​IMG]
     
  12. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    true blood i'm sorry you DON'T understand...the sacrafices were never intended, that's not what HaShem originally wanted they were given to the Hebrew people because they were surrounded by pagan societies and only understood a certain way of communicating w/ a deity. Originally all G-d wanted was prayer, for our words and open hearts (figureitvley speaking) to be the "sacrafices". What we have now, repentence of sin through prayer and performing mitzvot, is what was the original plan.
    The sacrafices weren't necessary...they were like training wheels for the jews until they realized prayer and the study of Torah was all they needed for a relationship with HaShem.
     
  13. precept

    precept Member

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    "Saw..." You are right! I also "know a ton of people" who are violaters. I am one of them....and so are you....and so is everyone human since our first parents sinned.

    The Bible from which the ten commandments originated also clearly state in James 2:10..." For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all".

    Verse 11-12 makes the point that any violation of any "one" of any of God's commandments will require contrition on the part of the violater if the violater expects to be a citizen of God's kingdom whether on earth or in heaven.
    On the other hand thjose who persist in violating God's commandments must expect a similar retribution as God visited on the ancient Hebrews when they persisted in sinning against Him...the same retribution as God rained in fire and brimstone as He "rained" death and destruction on the whole perverted city of Sodom....

    The sme retribution as He "rained" on the ante-deluvians in a flood destroying the entire civilization of the first world

    The same retribution as He will, in Revelation 19:20... ""rain" in fire and brimstone" on all those who wilfully disobey His commandments; and or who also choose to modify or in any other way tamper with His commandments by either reinterpreting what thjey think God meant or substituting what they feel better interprets God's intent for such a commandment...It is into the fires of hell prepared for the originator of sin--the devil---that will also be cast all those who follow the devil in disobeying God's commandments. into that unquenchable fire will be cast "the beast" together with the "false prophet" when our Lord returns the second time for all the citizens of His kingdom "who kept the commandments of God" Revelation...14:12



    precept
     
  14. angel888

    angel888 Member

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    The ten commandments are moral laws and Gods commandments that were never done away with as some would lead you to believe. If you break a commandment then you repent and ask for forgivness and being truly sorry you do not commit the sin again. If one truly loves GOd over self,he does not break the commandments of God ..

    The bible contains thousands of verses which warn us with consequences if we do break the commandments of God..

    Its not impossible to keep Gods Commandments, since with God all things are possible.

    Angel888
     
  15. Brad

    Brad New Member

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    There are, of course, people who call themselves Christians but do not following the teachings of Christ regularly - some not at all.

    But one item that particularly bothers me is that Jesus was SO much against violance and he preached to love both neighbors and enemies... yet many people feel that war is acceptable. People die in wars - I don't know that there has even been a war without death. And not only military people die in wars - innocent people die in every war... people with no choice... people who may or may not agree with the reasons for the war.

    War is just one obvious example - violence takes place daily. It's hard to go through life today without some exposure to violence in the media. :(

    Christianity isn't the only religion that preaches peace, yet we have a very violent world.

    It seems a peaceful goal should be more of a priority and one we could achieve.

    ~B
     
  16. Saw11_2000

    Saw11_2000 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to thank everyone for their input to this topic. There are some very interesting replies. :)
     
  17. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    It is folly to live under laws that no ,onger exist. It's like stopping at a corner after the stop sign has been removed. We shouldn't let tradition blind us and keep us unaware of changes which occor as the Words of God progress from one age to the next. The 10 commandments and the other 600 laws were given to Israel, therefor they apply to Israel. These laws were NEVER given to the Church. Had these laws been given to the Church it would be very well known. I would know. However, the Scriptures clearly state that as born again sons of God are not under the law, but grace! So to all the fanatics of tradition please realise that the laws were applied to and for Israel and as such were never altered, changed or transferred to any other period. Let me point out some scripture to back this up and if you disagree, provide your own scripture to back your own.

    Romans 7:4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD to the law (on the account of) the body of Christ.

    Galatians 4:31: So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

    Galatians 5:1: Stand fast therefore in the libery wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    Galatians 4:9-11: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements (including the law), whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

    You see every day is sacred according to the Word of God and not one day more so than any other day. More proof that the Old laws are gone.
     
  18. Geoman076

    Geoman076 Member

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    It is dangerous to take any one law, like violence is bad, and say that it applies at all times.

    Is it a sin to lie in order to save a life?
    Is it a sin to shoot a man who is about to kill 10 innocent people?

    This fallen world puts you in these "catch 22" situations, where you are "damned if you do, and damned if you don't", literally! That is why you must confess your sins to Jesus Christ. The problem is that peole do not think they are doing anything wrong.
     
  19. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    But this can't be proven. It's possible something that is going on in their life is a result of not following God's word.
     
  20. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding that the information in the OT was to show continuity between the OT and NT and, in fact, was one of the tests for determining which information to include.

    I hope I'm saying this right since this is what I've read but am still trying to understand it...

    We are not held to the OT laws (Leviticus) because these laws were the covenant between God and the Hebrews. Jesus was the culmination of these laws. In order to find redemption, we no longer need to follow these laws, but instead must accept Christ as Saviour. We are still held to the moral laws which, I understand, are again repeated in the NT.

    Bottom line though is that we are humans and imperfect and God knew that we could never be sinless. So He sent Jesus to atone for the sins of the world. Through our faith, our sins are forgiven....but it doesn't mean we will never sin again. Although, as mentioned in other threads, if you truly are repentant, your behavior will begin to change as you try to emulate Christ.

    Sorry....hope this wasn't too rambling.
     
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