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Can a Religious Experience of a God Produce Certain Knowledge of That God?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's true that we cannot understand the soul or God, there are some things in religion that we can understand. The Holy Spirit can illumine our minds about such things:

But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 298)

One caveat though. How does one know that one's inspiration is the Holy Spirit? Also the Holy Spirit comes through in different strengths for me, is everything I think right when the Holy Spirit only comes through faintly? I don't think so. Only for a very spiritual person or a Manifestation of God is it certain. I once was high on the Spirit, then I thought I was a prophet of God, and I knew that wasn't right. But the more the Holy Spirit comes through the more certain we can be. It still has to be weighed against all of the scriptures and reason. In another place Abdu'l-Baha also examines how we acquire knowledge and also concludes that inspiration can be faulty and doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. This indicates to me that I am on the right track. If we combine our senses, reason, scripture, and inspiration we can arrive at the truth of a matter. This is the best way.
the Holy Spirit which comes to man -- but HOW does the Holy Spirit come to man? It comes through the Manifestations of God, it does not come directly to man.

You said: "But the more the Holy Spirit comes through the more certain we can be. It still has to be weighed against all of the scriptures and reason."

There is no way you can be certain because there is no way you can know it is the Holy Spirit and not your own thoughts.

This is simply my bias. If people want to believe that the Holy Spirit comes to them they can believe that. It is possible that the Holy Spirit comes to man, but my point is that we can never know if it does or not. Moreover, people thinking that they know that the Holy Spirit came to them can lead to all sorts of delusions so there is a danger in believing that.

The upshot of all this is that these spiritual experiences are only valuable for the people who have them, and they can be misleading, like a Christian who told me that the Holy Spirit told him that Baha'u'llah was a fraud.... Was that the Holy Spirit, or just his imagination?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So, nothing from earlier beliefs, like sun worship or any other similar beliefs, has ever had any effect on subsequent beliefs? Or was God involved in these too?
God was involved only if God sent a Messenger. God has sent Messengers to mankind since the dawn of time, long before there was any record-keeping. God will continue to send Messengers for eternity. It is difficult to parse out which earlier beliefs actually came from a Messenger of God because the records of what they revealed are not accurate and often are not even available. Some beliefs that people had in earlier times did not come from any revelation of God so they were man-made.

But yes, former beliefs did have an effect on subsequent beliefs, since each revelation of God builds upon another, each one preparing us for the next one. This is called the spiritual evolution of mankind.
Many, including myself, would see that as being evidence of a rather nasty, vengeful God, and not one to be worshiped in any way. But then, for us, being non-believers, it hardly matters does it, except we have to live in the world created and afflicted by so many different religious beliefs.
That is one way to look at it, especially if you do not have the full picture such that you can understand the spiritual evolution of mankind over time and why it was necessary for God to do what God did:

This small book explains the spiritual evolution of mankind as it is related to the Bible: The Heart of the Gospel
Timing is everything. Perhaps if we had such intervention at other times, we might not have had so many wars and/or destructive behaviour from the many religious believers.
That is true, but what happened in the past is now history. It happened for a reason, to get to where we are now, as you will see if you read that book cited above. Only God can know why it was done this way, all we can see is the evolution through history. We can have knowledge, but in the end, we have to take some of this on faith. ;)
I didn't have any negative experiences with religion, I just didn't need it. I conjectured, about the age of 11, and learning about so many different faiths, that it was likely that none were true rather than them all or one being true. Nothing changed throughout my life to alter this view.
But even though you did not have any negative experiences with religion, you did have an experience with religion, because you had learned about many faiths in order to decide what you did. You thus have some confirmation bias because you had a prior experience with religion. By contrast, I never even thought about God or religion as a child, so I had no confirmation bias when I stumbled upon Baha’i at age 17 in my first year in college. :)
Lack of or adequate?

If the first, then apologies to all - just me I'm afraid - being honest.
No, your courtesy is more than adequate. I understand your fears. It shows your humility. :)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
the Holy Spirit which comes to man -- but HOW does the Holy Spirit come to man? It comes through the Manifestations of God, it does not come directly to man.

You said: "But the more the Holy Spirit comes through the more certain we can be. It still has to be weighed against all of the scriptures and reason."

There is no way you can be certain because there is no way you can know it is the Holy Spirit and not your own thoughts.

This is simply my bias. If people want to believe that the Holy Spirit comes to them they can believe that. It is possible that the Holy Spirit comes to man, but my point is that we can never know if it does or not. Moreover, people thinking that they know that the Holy Spirit came to them can lead to all sorts of delusions so there is a danger in believing that.

The upshot of all this is that these spiritual experiences are only valuable for the people who have them, and they can be misleading, like a Christian who told me that the Holy Spirit told him that Baha'u'llah was a fraud.... Was that the Holy Spirit, or just his imagination?
In some cases when I think I'm experiencing the Holy Spirit, I may be just feeling my love for God. But in a few cases I know I experienced the Holy Spirit because of the strength of the reaction in me. In that great experience I had several years ago I felt ecstasy and love for God that came from nowhere, so I know it was the Holy Spirit. Usually though, we cannot tell for sure. There was another instance several weeks ago where I felt a great love for all men from nowhere. I could tell from that it was the Holy Spirit because of those reasons.

Those who claim to be one with God may be one with their own soul. Or maybe they experience the Holy Spirit, I don't know.

Definitely the person that said the Holy Spirit told him Baha'u'llah was a fraud was a victim of his own imagination. Most Christians believe that the Holy Spirit talks so when that happens to them it is their own imagination that is speaking to them. As far as I know the Holy Spirit doesn't talk though I don't know of any Baha'i Writings that say this. In thinking that the Holy Spirit doesn't talk I am basing that on my own experience. The Holy Spirit has never talked to me. Also Baha'u'llah said this:

They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 337)

This may indicate that whenever you hear a voice in your head, it is your imagination, but it doesn't directly say that.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In some cases when I think I'm experiencing the Holy Spirit, I may be just feeling my love for God. But in a few cases I know I experienced the Holy Spirit because of the strength of the reaction in me. In that great experience I had several years ago I felt ecstasy and love for God that came from nowhere, so I know it was the Holy Spirit. Usually though, we cannot tell for sure. There was another instance several weeks ago where I felt a great love for all men from nowhere. I could tell from that it was the Holy Spirit because of those reasons.
I admit, that could have been the Holy Spirit... I recently found these passages in Baha'i World Faith:

TURN TO THE HOLY SPIRIT
INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

I get these feelings more than once in a while and another explanation is that it could be the Concourse on high or the angels that we are told come to our assistance.
Those who claim to be one with God may be one with their own soul. Or maybe they experience the Holy Spirit, I don't know.
I agree. It could be either. My point was that we cannot really know what it is we experience.
In thinking that the Holy Spirit doesn't talk I am basing that on my own experience. The Holy Spirit has never talked to me. Also Baha'u'llah said this:

They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 337)

This may indicate that whenever you hear a voice in your head, it is your imagination, but it doesn't directly say that.
No, I do not think that passage means that everything we imagine is our own fancy. If it is aligned with what Baha'u'lalh wrote it is not fanciful. :)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 337)

This may indicate that whenever you hear a voice in your head, it is your imagination, but it doesn't directly say that.



No, I do not think that passage means that everything we imagine is our own fancy. If it is aligned with what Baha'u'lalh wrote it is not fanciful. :)

I'm talking about the 2nd part of the passage, not the first. The 1st part is not involved in what I'm saying.If the Holy Spirit is a voice, how can you tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and your own imagination. I don't think that Baha'u'llah would say that if the Holy Spirit spoke. Do you understand?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I summarize your argument as saying that since we are humans with limited capacity, every alleged divine experience can be explained away using scientific explanations of how we misinterpret experience.

Not just science, but logic and epistemology too. And not "explained away", but rendered uncertain.

...I'm still not clear if you would accept that if there were an Omnipotent God, that he could impart certain knowledge of himself...

That's a good point, but I would like at the moment to make three points in return:

First, even if there was an omnipotent god capable of imparting certain knowledge of itself, how would we know the god's "will" in this matter? I suppose one could argue that an omnipotent deity capable of imparting certain knowledge of itself would be easily capable of accurately imparting knowledge of its "will" along with any other knowledge it wanted to impart of itself, but -- the very moment, the very instant, one renders that knowledge into human terms does it not become problematic how accurate the knowledge now is to anyone who did not share the experience?

Suppose, for the sake of discussion, you, Scott, have an experience of a deity one day while hiking in the mountains during which experience the deity accurately imparts a bit of information to you about itself. Let us further call that information "Y". Now, you come down from the mountains and try to communicate to me that information. I do not see how I would be able to understand Y unless the deity were inclined to also provide me with the same or similar experience of itself as it provided you with. You might say to me, "The deity revealed to me Y", but would I not hear "Z" instead of "Y" -- unless the deity also revealed Y to me too?

Again, suppose the deity made Y simple enough even for a moron like me to understand. Let's say the deity imparted to you the fact it was a "Tibetan Buddhist". That might seem at first blush to be a solution to our problem, but -- and it's a huge "but" -- how can it be possible that a deity, a true deity, is in any way a Tibetan Buddhist in the same sense as I might be one? Indeed, what could it possibly mean to me that you say, "God is a Tibetan Buddhist"? Wouldn't that be to me a bit like your saying, "God thinks like a human"? In other words, you might know the way or sense in which "God is a Tibetan Buddhist" -- assuming god "wills" you understand, but how could I know in what way God is a Tibetan Buddhist unless god further wills that I understand?

Second, I am aware that in most religious and mystical experiences, there is a sense, feeling, or perception that the experience is overwhelmingly real -- "Realer than normal day to day reality itself", as a friend of mine once put it. Yet, I also know that various brain scan technologies have shown the sense, feeling, or perception of "super-realness" is correlated with changes in an area of the brain responsible for our sense, feeling, or perception that things are real. Thus, there is the possibility the super-realness encountered during a religious or mystical experience is merely the product of changes in our brain functioning.

Now I would argue that the findings are even more significant than that. They not only show there is a possibility super-realness is wholly a product of the brain, but they also show deity apparently is not trying to impart certain and assured knowledge of itself during religious or mystical experiences. For if deity "willed" to make our knowledge certain and assured, why would it leave a "loophole" like that one?

Third, we find the second point to everywhere be the case. No matter how we look at it, there is some reason for uncertainty. There is some reason -- whether it be this reason or that reason -- for being uncertain that a religious or mystical experience has imparted true knowledge of deity to us. I haven't even gotten into most of the reasons for that here because most of them you are probably familiar with -- and this is already long, long enough.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 337)

If the Holy Spirit is a voice, how can you tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and your own imagination. I don't think that Baha'u'llah would say that if the Holy Spirit spoke. Do you understand?
Yes, I understand now! thanks... :)

That's right, how could you tell the difference? :confused:o_O
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Anyone genuinely interested in the argument offered in the OP and post 30 should take a look @Scott C.'s posts #24, #35, and #58, and my post #66. Scott C raises an important point (An omnipotent deity could theoretically create a state of affairs in which it imparted true justified belief [knowledge] about itself to someone) that I believe qualifies and informs my argument, but does not refute it.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
God was involved only if God sent a Messenger. God has sent Messengers to mankind since the dawn of time, long before there was any record-keeping. God will continue to send Messengers for eternity. It is difficult to parse out which earlier beliefs actually came from a Messenger of God because the records of what they revealed are not accurate and often are not even available. Some beliefs that people had in earlier times did not come from any revelation of God so they were man-made.

But yes, former beliefs did have an effect on subsequent beliefs, since each revelation of God builds upon another, each one preparing us for the next one. This is called the spiritual evolution of mankind.

Given that religious belief is declining in perhaps most of the more advanced countries, is there a possibility that the message needs rethinking? After all, when we get negative results, we often should alter our behaviour. Although it is possible that the newly developing countries might buck this trend, especially the more Islamic ones, it would seem likely that as they developed then they too might show declining religious belief - as those pernicious effects of globalisation take hold. :oops:

That is true, but what happened in the past is now history. It happened for a reason, to get to where we are now, as you will see if you read that book cited above. Only God can know why it was done this way, all we can see is the evolution through history. We can have knowledge, but in the end, we have to take some of this on faith. ;)

I suspect too many religions would be the answer many would give - including me.

But even though you did not have any negative experiences with religion, you did have an experience with religion, because you had learned about many faiths in order to decide what you did. You thus have some confirmation bias because you had a prior experience with religion. By contrast, I never even thought about God or religion as a child, so I had no confirmation bias when I stumbled upon Baha’i at age 17 in my first year in college. :)

Not really. I just learnt that there were so many. I conjectured then - I didn't actually know anything concrete about any of them, so it was just the likelihood that caused me to form this opinion. Looking into the various aspects of the major religions to decide I was indeed right to reject them all came a lot later - when I bought my first book studying the various beliefs etc., and tried to understand all the various tenets and such. I have probably mentioned elsewhere that our family was hardly religious at all - no prayers, church-going (other than the various obvious events), although my mother did take me to the Methodist Chapel nearby once. I lost interest after one or two sessions, preferring to be elsewhere with the other kids. My mother never insisted I went. So I can't really say I had much contact at all with religions - apart from incidentally.

No, your courtesy is more than adequate. I understand your fears. It shows your humility. :)

Cleared that up then. :D :D
 
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Scott C.

Just one guy
Not just science, but logic and epistemology too. And not "explained away", but rendered uncertain.

I am 100% certain that I'm sitting on my couch right now, laptop on my lap, television paused, typing this response. I'm certain because I have complete trust in my sight, touch, hearing, and applicable brain functions that are sending me all of the signals to give me this certainty. Someone could probably pull together an argument that would not explain away my sense of reality, but could at least render it uncertain. And I will admit, that there is some, be it ever so small, degree of uncertainty. I might be the only thing that exists in time and space and everything I have ever experienced is an illusion. I believe that some people have experienced God in a way that gives the same level of certitude as one can possibly have regarding any thing which is experienced in a non-mystical or non-religious way. And in some ways, the religious experience may even be more penetrating to the soul and more convincing than a non-religious experience can be.

You made other points which I will try to repond to later. (I'm sure you're on pins and needles).
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Given that religious belief is declining in perhaps most of the more advanced countries, is there a possibility that the message needs rethinking? After all, when we get negative results, we often should alter our behaviour. Although it is possible that the newly developing countries might buck this trend, especially the more Islamic ones, it would seem likely that as they developed then they too might show declining religious belief - as those pernicious effects of globalisation take hold.
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t is true that in certain countries in Europe and Canada Christianity is declining, and there are more atheists than ever before, but that does not represent the world population. Religion has made resurgence worldwide whereas atheism and agnosticism have been on the decline since the year 2000. Baha’is would attribute this resurgence to the effect of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, although it took a while to start having this pronounced effect.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. It is also interesting to note that agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia
Not really. I just learnt that there were so many. I conjectured then - I didn't actually know anything concrete about any of them, so it was just the likelihood that caused me to form this opinion. Looking into the various aspects of the major religions to decide I was indeed right to reject them all came a lot later - when I bought my first book studying the various beliefs etc., and tried to understand all the various tenets and such. I have probably mentioned elsewhere that our family was hardly religious at all - no prayers, church-going (other than the various obvious events), although my mother did take me to the Methodist Chapel nearby once. I lost interest after one or two sessions, preferring to be elsewhere with the other kids. My mother never insisted I went. So I can't really say I had much contact at all with religions - apart from incidentally.
As I recall, my older sister and I wandered into a Methodist church once but we were not allowed to attend. Then after my father dies when I was 12 years old, we moved in with my aunt and uncle and we had to go to the Catholic Church to be polite – that was frightening for me. When we moved in with another aunt and uncle we attended a Lutheran Church and that was not so bad. When I was in middle school I got in a lot of trouble so my mother put me in a Catholic school for my first year of high school. I had no idea what was going on in mass... Then my mother pulled me out and I attended a public school that was mostly Jewish kids. I never had anything to do with religion as that was my hippie phase. Then in my first year of college I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith and became a Baha’i. I was still not religious, but I believed in God and in the principles of Baha’u’llah. I never really became religious as far as observances and activities, but I believe in the teachings of Baha’u’llah and in God. :)

I doubt I will ever become religious, but who knows what the future holds? :rolleyes:o_O
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
It is true that in certain countries in Europe and Canada Christianity is declining, and there are more atheists than ever before, but that does not represent the world population. Religion has made resurgence worldwide whereas atheism and agnosticism have been on the decline since the year 2000. Baha’is would attribute this resurgence to the effect of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, although it took a while to start having this pronounced effect.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. It is also interesting to note that agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

I tend to go by the amount of freedom allowed in any particular country. Where religions are not dominant or a cultural necessity, as in many Islamic countries, for example, then religions do tend to decline. I believe even in America religious belief is declining? Immigration will be skewing things too, especially where there will be little integration going on. Perhaps overall there might be an increase in religiosity but not where it matters - that is, where people are free to have whatever beliefs they want and don't feel obliged or threatened in any way. I dismiss out of hand all those countries where this is not the case. An example of backwardness indeed. :(

As I recall, my older sister and I wandered into a Methodist church once but we were not allowed to attend. Then after my father dies when I was 12 years old, we moved in with my aunt and uncle and we had to go to the Catholic Church to be polite – that was frightening for me. When we moved in with another aunt and uncle we attended a Lutheran Church and that was not so bad. When I was in middle school I got in a lot of trouble so my mother put me in a Catholic school for my first year of high school. I had no idea what was going on in mass... Then my mother pulled me out and I attended a public school that was mostly Jewish kids. I never had anything to do with religion as that was my hippie phase. Then in my first year of college I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith and became a Baha’i. I was still not religious, but I believed in God and in the principles of Baha’u’llah. I never really became religious as far as observances and activities, but I believe in the teachings of Baha’u’llah and in God. :)

I doubt I will ever become religious, but who knows what the future holds? :rolleyes:o_O

Our beginnings can be so different - no wonder we all seem to have different views. :D :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I tend to go by the amount of freedom allowed in any particular country. Where religions are not dominant or a cultural necessity, as in many Islamic countries, for example, then religions do tend to decline. I believe even in America religious belief is declining? Immigration will be skewing things too, especially where there will be little integration going on. Perhaps overall there might be an increase in religiosity but not where it matters - that is, where people are free to have whatever beliefs they want and don't feel obliged or threatened in any way. I dismiss out of hand all those countries where this is not the case. An example of backwardness indeed.
Yes, Christianity is slowly declining in the United States, from 85% of the population in 1990 to 75% in 2015, to 71% in 2017. I think some of these people who are dropping out are becoming atheists and agnostics, but some still believe in God and consider themselves spiritual but not religious.

The countries where Islam is the majority are probably the countries with the least religious freedom. There are many countries that are not backward and have religious freedom where Christianity is still the majority of the population, even in Europe.Russia is an exception because it is about 84% Christians but they are not free to worship any kind of Christianity they want and they are not allowed to proselytize. As I recall from a Baha’i in our community who is from Russia and travels back and forth, a new law states that Baha’is can no longer talk about Baha’i openly and they can be put in jail if caught doing so. I think that also applies to other religions, Mormons and JWs, but they are allowed to worship in their churches.
Our beginnings can be so different - no wonder we all seem to have different views.
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It is true that our childhoods have more effect upon our views than anything else in our lives. They shape our future, but they do not have to determine our future.I probably have no predilection towards religion because of my childhood although that could change someday if I have a good enough reason to change…:)
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
There are many countries that are not backward and have religious freedom where Christianity is still the majority of the population, even in Europe.

I meant in the sense that some countries are not embracing essential freedoms that most of the more advanced nations would see as a fundamental right, and hence hardly contributing to progress, but holding it up. :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I meant in the sense that some countries are not embracing essential freedoms that most of the more advanced nations would see as a fundamental right, and hence hardly contributing to progress, but holding it up. :D
Thanks for explaining that... No doubt I got my wires crossed since I only slept 4 hours and I was dog tired today, and we had a cat that had to got the vet and I was soooooo worried about a growth she had.... But it was only a benign cyst and it got drained and she is just fine... I am sooooo happy about that... :):):)

My animals are my life, besides my people on forums. :D:D:D

And now I have to eat and get some sleep... :eek:
 
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