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Featured Can a Jew answer this?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by ayin, Dec 24, 2020.

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  1. ayin

    ayin Member

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    [Mt 22:41-46] And when the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, What think ye of the Christ? Whose son is he? They say unto him, David's. He saith unto them: How then doth David call him Lord in spirit, when he saith, " The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I put thine enemies under thy feet"? Now if David calls him Lord, how is he his son? And no one could answer him a word, nor dared anyone question him further from that day.
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Why would a Jew give any credence to anything written in the Gospel of Matthew?
     
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  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    OOOH! Pick me! Pick me! I can answer it:

    "He doesn't and he isn't."

    What do I win?
     
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  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying David doesn't call the Messiah Lord and that the Messiah isn't David's son?
    That would imply that maybe someone else and not David wrote the first part of Psalm 110 and/or the Psalm is not Messianic.
     
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what I'm saying. It would only imply that Psalm 110's opening refers to someone entirely different and that David is dead and the messiah hadn't been born when he died, so the messiah won't be his son. Descendant, yes. Son, no.
     
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  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Looks like it's a flawed conclusion based on a flawed translation of psalm 110. Here's a detailed discussion of it if you're interested.

    Psalm 110 - A Jewish Perspective
     
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  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Son and descendant are same thing.
    I see the Psalm as prophetic and is David telling what the LORD said to his (David's) Lord.
    Looking through the Psalm it does appear to be Messianic.
    So I can see why Jesus would refer to it as Messianic and why the Jews of Jesus day would do the same.
     
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  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Who made up that rule?
     
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  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    No, son is son and descendant is descendant. The fact that in Hebrew, the word for son is also used for descendant in some cases doesn't mean that in English, the two words are synonymous.
    Looking through Psalm 110, it appears to be talking about someone else entirely, and Jews at the time knew this. All the gospel quote does is cast light on the authenticity of the gospel accounts by putting an attitude in the mouth of the Pharisees that they wouldn't have.
     
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  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen Psalm 110 as showing Jesus is God. However, clearly whomever David is referring to is the lord of David. The Psalm seems messianic to me and it seem to the Jews that Jesus was speaking to, and so the Messiah, the man who would come as the Messiah is said to be the lord of David.
    Jesus was just asking how the Messiah could be lord of David and also the son of David.
    I see no difference if Adonai is spelt with a capital or lower case L, the meaning is the same.
    For Christians the Psalm is Messianic since Jesus said so (and it seems the Jews of Jesus day also saw it that way) and because Jesus did offer Himself up as a sacrifice for sin (as per Isa 53) and became the High Priest in the New Covenant, (doing away with the need for the Levitical priesthood) and because the Psalm, even if it originally may have been about David who acted as priest it seems at times, with the blessing of God (unlike Saul) and was King in Jerusalem, as the Messiah is also King of the Jews in Jerusalem. But on top of these things, it surely is the Messiah who is going judge the nations and rule over them (see Psalm 2)
     
  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that the one who is going to judge and rule the earth would be the Messiah. The one spoken of in Psalm 110 is that one.
    The Messiah is also the son of David according to prophecy. In this case that means a male descendant.
    Is there a reason that the Jews of Jesus day would not see the one who is going to judge and rule the earth as the Messiah?
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    One issue here seems to be your understanding of simple sentences. Take, for example, the title sentence of this thread, i.e.: "Can a Jew answer this?"
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstand 110 then.
    In the first verse, God says to someone whom the writer sees as his (the writer's) superior that this person should sit at God's right hand. The 2 words in Hebrew (one referring to God and the other to the writer's superior) are different, pronounced differently. God then says how HE (God) will judge (in the verse about judging, the word is pronounced in the way which is used for God).
    Who the other figure is -- the two most common explanations being that David is speaking of Abraham (cf Gen 23:6) or the writer is not David (the Psalm begins with a phrase which means "to David" or "Of David" but not necessarily "by David") so the writer is talking about David as the one seated next to God, can certainly be discussed. But assuming that the figure has to be some future messiah because the text says God will judge makes no sense.
     
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  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    First, I want to say that I respect your point of view eventhough I don't agree with it.

    The important detail is that verse in Hebrew in psalm 110 says "adonee" which is better translated as "my master". However, the author of the book of Matthew changes that. Instead of using the greek word for "master" (Strong's Greek: 1203. δεσπότης (despotés) -- lord, master) they use the word for the name of God (Strong's Greek: 2962. κύριος (kurios) -- lord, master). See below:

    Screenshot_20201225_091108.jpg
    Notice that in the greek, it's the name of God (captial L, Lord) listed twice. Take a look at the actual Hebrew of Psalm 110:

    Screenshot_20201225_095350.jpg

    Do you see how the author of Matthew changed the verse? Things like this cast serious doubt on the accuracy of the NT. The short episode in question was intended to show how the pharisee was not able to answer the question. But the question is based on a mistranslated verse in Psalms.

    This is why I said: "It's a flawed conclusion based on a flawed translation." The flawed conclusion is: "The pharisee couldn't answer the question." A more likely conclusion is: If this episode actually occured, the authors of the NT changed the story to make it look good for Jesus and make it look bad for the the pharisee. By changing the words of the psalm, the authors of NT showed they were willing to sacrifice accuracy in favor of making Jesus look good.

    If the episode occured, I expect the pharisee would have answered either that the psalm was being misquoted, or they would have answered that the Jewish Messiah is a King. A King is the master of the entire kingdom including David. The father-son relationship wouldn't change that. This is obvious if the psalm is quoted correctly using the words "my master", not "lord".
     
    #14 dybmh, Dec 25, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
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  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    There is one other wrinkle -- Jews, when confronted with the 4 letter name of God do not pronounce it. Instead, a special construct was established, pronounced a-do-niy with the final vowel being pronounced as a long I sound (as in trY). That word, a-do-niy is not actually in the verse, but is just a way that we read the verse because we don't pronounce the 4 letter name (in fact, the vowels used when writing the 4 letter name are the ones from the word a-do-niy to remind us to say the substitute word). The other word in the verse which means "my master" is a-do-nee.

    So you have two different pronunciations, and one of them isn't even really in the verse but is a substitute, and yet the translations want to equate the two.
     
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  16. ayin

    ayin Member

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  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Did he? See here.

    If accurate, does not this suggest that the author of gMt was simply referring to Psalm 110 as found in the Greek targum. If so, it may have been a bad translation but it's hardly fair to blame the Christian apologist.
     
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  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to take it into a protracted debate, but there are Jews on the thread and I'm finding out if they can answer it, even if the OP was not a question but was just a quote from the Gospels which could be seen as needing no answer at all.
    That is the way you went when you asked why Jews would give any credence to something from the gospels.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Then why are you trolling for debate?
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I have heard it said by a Jew that the person who wrote the Psalm down for David if the "my" in verse 1 and the 'master' in verse 1 is David.
    I have also heard it said that "of David" does not mean that David wrote the Psalm but that the Psalm is about David. (this of course would assume that a Psalm about David cannot also have a further prophetic application to the Messiah.
    To me it does not look like God is saying that He will judge. It is the 'lord' at His right hand who will judge. I presume that is speaking of the 'master' whom God said to sit at His right hand and it is because of possible ambiguity in the meaning that this phrase "the lord at your right hand" is added.
    This of course could be seen as God judging through someone else. The Christian scriptures tell us that God is going to judge the earth through Jesus.
    The Hebrew scriptures do seem to be saying that God will come to judge the earth however. (Psalm 96:13 etc) (see also Psalm 2 which seems to be Messianic to Christians, for this ambiguity about who is going to judge and rule)
    So it is understandable that Jews see the one who is judging as God and not the Messiah.
     
    #20 Brian2, Dec 25, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
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