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Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong?

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JerryL

Well-Known Member
I always subordinate "science" to the Bible, as I have made up my mind years ago that God, Himself is the Author of science. Therefore science cannot contradict God.
So are you a geocentricist? Or do you assert that the Roman Catholic Church (for the first mellinia or so), Martin Luther, and Jahn Calvin were all incapable of understanding the Bible and you are?
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
That statement a few pages back about 'sure they can be wrong, look at John Edwards' (or something to that effect; apologies, I don't feel like digging back pages to find the exact quote) has been in my head for quite a bit. If you ever watch some of the shows like Mind Freak or any other street magic shows, you have countless people willing to testify that someone's defied physics, levitated, read their mind, countless other things. They're convinced of it. How are they any more or less right than the people that saw Jesus turn water to wine or walk on water?
 

WindsofWater2

New Member
Is a mere written testimony (bible) about 500 eyewitnesses prone to be wrong?

It's a big gamble, and people don't always think before believing in it. I know I haven't at some point in life.

The big reason why Jesus is such an avatar is because he made the claim that he was God himself and put quite a challenge and fulfilled that challenge in people's eyes. Other spiritual gurus did no such thing ( at least most) and usually claim to just be another man. The controversy here is, many people newly feel that Jesus's words reflect that of what a monk or yogi might say, and it might have been misinterpreted by taking his words literally.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Sir William Ramsay, who at first was a skeptical archeologist, after 30 years of study, had this to say about Luke and the book of Acts. "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians. Lukes history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness". Colin Hemer catalogued numerous archaeological and historical confirmations of Luke's accuracy in his book "The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History" Roman Historian A.N. Sherwin-White said, "For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming...Any attempt to reject its basic historicity must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted."

I do not believe we can question Luke's historical accuracy in the book of Acts. It has been questioned before, and found to be extroadinary. 500 people eyewitnessing Jesus after the ressurection, and His being here for 40 days before the Ascenscion, is just one part of the big puzzle. If one truly searches, as I have, I do not see how one could conclude anything but that the new testament is true, and that Jesus is who he claimed to be.

SOMETHING happenned to the disciples on the day of pentecost! They went from cowering in their room to proclaiming the gospel. As far as dying for a cause, if they had NOT seen Jesus after he rose again, they would NOT die for it. But as they HAD seen him, they could not deny it, and did not. Here is the rub, many people have died for something they BELIEVED to be true, nobody will die for something they DO NOT believe to be true, unless they are insane. These men ALL died for what they believed except John who was exiled to Patmos. I believe they did indeed see Jesus after he rose again, and at pentecost were empowered by the Holy Spirit to proclaim it.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
we've learned a lot since the 1800's... and having a Chemist tell you about Archeology and History is a bit like letting a Dentist operate on your lung cancer.

wa:do
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Sir William Ramsay, who at first was a skeptical archeologist, after 30 years of study, had this to say about Luke and the book of Acts. "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians.
Google "appeal to authority logical fallacy"

I do not believe we can question Luke's historical accuracy in the book of Acts. It has been questioned before, and found to be extroadinary.
Certainly, then, you will have no problem referencing some of the more fantastic claims taht caused incredulity along with the proof that they actually occured.

You can also prove Luke wrote acts.

I'll be waiting.

SOMETHING happenned to the disciples on the day of pentecost! They went from cowering in their room to proclaiming the gospel.
I see the claim but not the support. Let's start with "how many can we confim existed".

As far as dying for a cause, if they had NOT seen Jesus after he rose again, they would NOT die for it. But as they HAD seen him, they could not deny it, and did not.
Riight. That's why no Muslims die for their religion, nor did any of teh followers of Korres, or Moon, or Da. There's not a single Buddist martyer, and certainly none who set themselves on fire by dousing themselves with gasoline. That's never happened, because that would bean that Buddism, Korresh, the Moonies, and the Muslims are right.

As far as dying for a cause, if they had NOT seen Jesus after he rose again, they would NOT die for it. But as they HAD seen him, they could not deny it, and did not.
Cool. Cite.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Right, they died for something they believed to be true (Muslims, Buddists, etc.) The disciples did too, if they had made it up, then when it came to losing their lives they would have said ok, ok, we just made it up, please don't kill us. But they DID see him, and DID die for it.
 

Fluffy

A fool
An excellent question, Fluffy!

My faith in God is based on my own personal relationship with Him. He sought me out, not vice-versa. At the time I got saved, I knew there was something missing in my life. A void, so to speak, was there that only He could (and did) fill.

This is not a blind faith, Fluffy, as now I can agree with Paul when he said in 2 Timothy 1:12 ---

I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, AND AM PERSUADED THAT HE IS ABLE TO KEEP THAT WHICH I HAVE COMMITED UNTO HIM AGAINST THAT DAY.

I can also agree with what Peter said in 2 Peter 1:16 ---

FOR WE HAVE NOT FOLLOWED CUNNINGLY DEVISED FABLES...

I guess I really don't know what triggered my conversion to Christianity other than the fact that God has embedded in us a desire to "look [up] for something better". An "upward pull" to "Something out there" ... if you know what I'm saying.

It's just a "feeling" that Someone is out there, anxiously awaiting to take our call, and that He has been here before.

I hope this makes sense.
Well I reckon me and you are talking about the same thing, just I call it blind and you don't lol :). But that is exactly my point you see. Your belief in Christianity does not originate from scripture. Scripture backs up a belief which is already there. Which is fine by my account. However, do you really think that the reverse, ie belief from Scripture is possible or even a good thing?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
I could list all the apostles and their manner of death, but you would just say, ' do you have solid proof of that?" and I would say no, that I don't have any more proof of that then of many other famous people who died in history. What I am saying is that if they had not seen Jesus after he rose from the dead they would not have died for it. Since they did see Jesus after he rose again, they did die for it. No man will die for something he knows to be a lie. He will die only for something he believes to be true.

Something happenned to change the course of history quite dramaticaly, to change peoples lives, to bring about a people who built hospitals, orphanages, schools, and who were involved in many great humanitarian efforts where others stood by passively. Something happenned. Believe it or not.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Joe said:
What I am saying is that if they had not seen Jesus after he rose from the dead they would not have died for it. Since they did see Jesus after he rose again, they did die for it. No man will die for something he knows to be a lie. He will die only for something he believes to be true.
Your argument assumes that people are willing to die only for things they have personally verified to be true. But, Joe, people die all the time for things they have not personally seen or verified, but believe to be true. Look at history! It's almost human nature to believe in things we have not personally verified to be true.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
joeboonda said:
I could list all the apostles and their manner of death, but you would just say, ' do you have solid proof of that?" and I would say no, ...
You have no proof period. In my opinion, it is both dishonest and irresponsible to make positive claims under such circumstances.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
I could list all the apostles and their manner of death, but you would just say, ' do you have solid proof of that?" and I would say no, that I don't have any more proof of that then of many other famous people who died in history. What I am saying is that if they had not seen Jesus after he rose from the dead they would not have died for it. Since they did see Jesus after he rose again, they did die for it. No man will die for something he knows to be a lie. He will die only for something he believes to be true.

Something happenned to change the course of history quite dramaticaly, to change peoples lives, to bring about a people who built hospitals, orphanages, schools, and who were involved in many great humanitarian efforts where others stood by passively. Something happenned. Believe it or not.
Thousands and thousands of Muslim died for their faith, including all the terrorist. Are these evidence that Muslim God Allah is true, and Yahweh is not the right one?:jiggy:
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
Your argument assumes that people are willing to die only for things they have personally verified to be true. But, Joe, people die all the time for things they have not personally seen or verified, but believe to be true. Look at history! It's almost human nature to believe in things we have not personally verified to be true.
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were EYEWITNESSES, and ministers of the word. Luke 1:1-2

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty. II Peter 1:16

For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely; for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; FOR THIS THING WAS NOT DONE IN A CORNER. Acts 26:26

These guys were EYEWITNESSES, they SAW Jesus after he rose again, and he was with them for 40 days! They didn't just BELIEVE it, they SAW it. Thus they died for it. Seen?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
joeboonda said:
... Luke 1:1-2
... II Peter 1:16
... Acts 26:26

These guys were EYEWITNESSES, they SAW Jesus after he rose again, and he was with them for 40 days! They didn't just BELIEVE it, they SAW it. Thus they died for it. Seen?
Poor joeboonda:
  • Luke was a witness to nothing.
  • II Peter is widely recognized as pseudepigraphic.
All you have is stories penned by nonwitnesses over half a century after the purported events. Please stop making things up.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
I thank you for your reply, but I am not poor at all in God's eyes. I did not make these things up, they are in the Bible, your beef is with them, not me. Tell ya what, I will take the Bible, and the eyewitness accounts of the apostles therein over your word anyday. You believe what you want and I will do the same, agreed?
 
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