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Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by michel, Sep 4, 2005.

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  1. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Now look Ill take your word on these things because I honestly don't know enough about the background about the Bible to disagree with you. And, given this, I do agree with you that the Bible is very unique. What it proves beyond that is less clear though.

    Okay right it is this that I disagree with. First of all, I believe that there are clear contradictions in the Bible. Secondly, the lack of contradictions between 2 pieces of writing is not a basis for its validity. If I write an article on brick work and one on sky diving, there may be no contradictions in either but such is not a reason for their validity.

    Agreement between the authors should be a reason for validity not lack of contradictions. I think that agreement between the authors of the Bible does happen but about as regularly as, say, the contradictions. Furthermore, I think agreement is naturally more likely because I believe that the Bible has clearly been changed by people after the original authors in order to bring the texts more in line with each other. Additionally, some of the authors had access to large parts of what is now the Bible and therefore, their writings would have been influenced by this. Therefore, agreement is caused by other things, not divine intervention.

    This would be a matter of opinion. People have said the same of the Bible. Why should either their or your opinion be valued more highly?

    The Koran.

    It might be more than coincidence. It really honestly might be. I am certainly not going to rule out that possibility. But I am not not ruling it out because of these arguments. Nor should anybody. Afterall the Bible specificly states that faith should be blind. I ask again, is your faith in God based on these arguments or your personal relationship with God? Which one triggered your conversion to Christianity?
     
  2. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Very very illogical. English version are translated from Greek, and you are saying Greek translations are wrong?

    Perhaps your King James is derived from Latin version, but then Latin version is from Greek / Hebrews as well...

    AHHH, looks like you are not familiar with the development / canonization of the bible:jam:

    Please do some homework::D
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html
    http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ingerhb.htm
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gerald_larue/otll/index.shtml
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
    http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/canon.php
    http://www.christianorigins.com/
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    An excellent question, Fluffy!

    My faith in God is based on my own personal relationship with Him. He sought me out, not vice-versa. At the time I got saved, I knew there was something missing in my life. A void, so to speak, was there that only He could (and did) fill.

    This is not a blind faith, Fluffy, as now I can agree with Paul when he said in 2 Timothy 1:12 ---

    I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, AND AM PERSUADED THAT HE IS ABLE TO KEEP THAT WHICH I HAVE COMMITED UNTO HIM AGAINST THAT DAY.

    I can also agree with what Peter said in 2 Peter 1:16 ---

    FOR WE HAVE NOT FOLLOWED CUNNINGLY DEVISED FABLES...

    I guess I really don't know what triggered my conversion to Christianity other than the fact that God has embedded in us a desire to "look [up] for something better". An "upward pull" to "Something out there" ... if you know what I'm saying.

    It's just a "feeling" that Someone is out there, anxiously awaiting to take our call, and that He has been here before.

    I hope this makes sense.
     
  4. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Luke, a historian of the highest degree, wrote the book of acts.
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I appreciate your wanting to educate me on where my Bible came from, but I already know.

    It came from the following "thread":

    Autographs --- then became ---
    Scripture (2nd-generation autographs) --- then became ---
    Koine Greek --- (NOT Classical Greek that the NIV, etc. come from) --- then became
    Gothic Scriptures (NOT the Greek junk that the Catholics played around with) --- then became
    The Authorized King James Version

    In other words, when the kids were playing around with the Greek manuscripts, God made sure the adults had the Byzantine (Gothic) Scriptures.
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi, Joe!

    I totally agree!
     
  7. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Right on, the historian that obtained his PhD from Havard, I presumed. :D

    Actually according to the copy of the KJV, the introduction to Acts by the editor(s) is as follow:

    The writer is, without doubt, Luke. The book has the same introductory address as his Gospel, and takes up the history where the third Gospel leaves it, giving in greater detail the account of the Ascension, with which that Gospel closes.
     
  8. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Congratulation on your one track mind. I still hope you will read those web link.
     
  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You don't need some goofy editor's commentary. Just read the text itself, and it will tell you.

    Luke 1:3 = ...TO WRITE UNTO THEE IN ORDER, MOST EXCELLENT THEOPHILUS.

    Acts 1:1 = THE FORMER TREATISE HAVE I MADE, O THEOPHILUS...

    Commentaries are for kids, the text is for the big boys.
     
  10. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Can you offer any support at all? What other histories did Luke write? How can we establish the gospel of Luke was written by the same person? How do we establish him to be "an historian of the highest degree".

    In short, I think you are asserting somethig for which there is no real support. The Gospels are unsigned, we cannot even be certain who the authors are... and we certainly have no other workd from them establishing their methodology nor reliability.

    Luke is widely believed in Christian circles to be written by a deciple of Paul. Paul is cited as referring to it as "my gospel". Since it really cannot offer new insight, I have to presume that the gospel is a political tool; and indeed it falls more in-line with Pauls preaching. It's essentially ghost-written for Paul, who never met Jesus (hence the neccessity of his "Jesus came to me, and 500 unnamed people saw it" claim).
     
  11. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    if we have only been around 4000 years why would god lie to us about it? Why would he put fake ancestors in our earth and why would he give us a culture with a fake history?
    Big Horn mecine wheel has been in CONTINUOUS use for over 7000 years. How did God fake that and get us to buy it???? :areyoucra
    I've already answered this question... yes.

    yup... many still are.

    yup... many still are.

     
  12. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    But the fact that he faked you into using a Medicine Wheel for over 7000 years is proof of this god's power! He even made it work! How clever is that! (It couldn't be anything like, y'know, proof of another path being valid. :rolleyes: )
     
  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Just simplify it and say God wrote it. You would be correct. The human writers were just inspired stenographers, so to speak.
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    [PART QUOTE=painted wolf]

    ..................."Michel- I'm just mirroring AVI's statement about not going into detail on the 'my prophet said this' game. Personally to me this isn't the place to discuss who's got a better track record of prophecy. I'm sure Nostradamus fans would love to get in on that sort of thing"........................ :cool:

    wa:do[/PART QUOTE]

    Fair enough, I was 'just interested'.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    For the umpteenth time, He did a poor job lying about it didn't he? Just add the times of death of the patriarchs in the OT, add the 400 years between the testaments, the 2000 years after that, and you come to only 6000 years since Adam.

    Who, specifically is "he" in your above quote? What is his name? I'm lost on this one. Who put fake ancestors "in our Earth"?
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    AV, I admire your fortitude (or is it fivetitude ? - it sure is big!). I don't understand how you can compete in your assertions (which you are welcome to believe in) against every single bit of scientific data that shows otherwise ?
     
  17. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    he the one who according to you faked my history and culture. Your god of the imbedded age.
    if you add up the generations (and evidence) that have been using the big horn medicine wheel you get more than 7000 years worth of people.

    Why would your god fake our history? Surely he would have no need to make us think we were around longer than 6000 years?

    maybe he just made us first and put your Adam on earth a thousand years after us?
    It would make sence to me, my religion says that god made my people first anyway. :D

    wa:do
     
  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Trust you to be at the front of the line.:biglaugh:
     
  19. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    LOL, Michel, "fivetitude", that's pretty good!

    I always subordinate "science" to the Bible, as I have made up my mind years ago that God, Himself is the Author of science. Therefore science cannot contradict God.

    Here's a good example:

    According to "science", rocks show evidence of evolution - BUT - what did Jesus say to the Pharisees when the Pharisees wanted Jesus to tell His disciples to shut up?

    Luke 19:40 = ... I TELL YOU THAT, IF THESE SHOULD HOLD THEIR PEACE, THE STONES WOULD IMMEDIATELY CRY OUT.

    So even geology testifys of Jesus.

    Anyway ... it's been a "long day" ... sorry for stepping on peoples' toes, but I believe what I believe.
     
  20. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Which you have every right to; I even admire you for your six-titude.:D
     
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