Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Tell ya what, I will take the Bible, and the eyewitness accounts of the apostles therein ...

You mean the stories of eyewitness accounts.

 

[joeboonda]

Call them what you want.

 

[michel]

Who died? When? According to whom? Repeating urban legend over and over does not make it true.

Are you guys still whinning for evidence? Man, I can't leave this website for 1 minute without you people wanting to be spoon-fed something some big-shot slientist hasn't said.

One of these days we're all going to be eyewitnesses, and it's going to be too late for some.

I've told you you're standing on the evidence; and you can't see the evidence because the ground is in the way!

Wake up!

 

[greatcalgarian]

Are you guys still whinning for evidence? Man, I can't leave this website for 1 minute without you people wanting to be spoon-fed something some big-shot slientist hasn't said.

One of these days we're all going to be eyewitnesses, and it's going to be too late for some.

I've told you you're standing on the evidence; and you can't see the evidence because the ground is in the way!

Wake up!

I have spoon-fed some one, but he/she refused to eat. And then go back telling the same story without finding out what is on the other side. I gave up:banghead3

 

[greatcalgarian]

I thank you for your reply, but I am not poor at all in God's eyes. I did not make these things up, they are in the Bible, your beef is with them, not me. Tell ya what, I will take the Bible, and the eyewitness accounts of the apostles therein over your word anyday. You believe what you want and I will do the same, agreed?

Poor joeboonda:

• Luke was a witness to nothing.
• II Peter is widely recognized as pseudepigraphic.

All you have is stories penned by nonwitnesses over half a century after the purported events. Please stop making things up.

I have a feeling that you did not read and understand what Deut has provided to you:149:

 

[greatcalgarian]

Please read this to see how great Luke was as a Historian:
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2002/2/022front.html

<H1 align=center>Luke: A First-Rate Historian?
An apologetic argument that biblicists persist in using in their attempts to prove the inerrancy of the Bible is that the historical accuracy of Luke was such that it strongly indicates that he was divinely inspired. This argument is almost always accompanied by claims that Sir William Ramsay, a renowned British archaeologist, had been a biblical skeptic until he began his field studies in the topography of Asia Minor. What he learned led him to conclude that Luke was a "first-rate historian." ..........

</H1>

 

[greatcalgarian]

This has some interesting arguement on 500. I thought everyone might be interested to read it:

<H4>Cross-examination, Farrell Till

Till: Mr. Horner, I've prepared some questions that I think can be answered very briefly. I'll make you a promise: if you'll be as brief as you can, I will be as brief as I can. First I wan to ask you, are you a Bible inerrantist? I think you know what that means, but for the benefit of those in the audience who might not know, I mean: do you believe that the Bible is totally, completely free of errors?

Horner: I believe that, but it's important to point out that it is not a necessary assumption fro tonight's debate or the conclusion that the Resurrection took place. I can sum it up in one sentence: I do not believe in the Resurrection because I believe in inerrancy, I believe in inerrancy because I believe in the Resurrection.

Till: O.K., I understand that. I was just trying to establish if your are an inerrantist. Do you believe that an angel delivered to Joseph Smith golden plates on which the Book of Mormon was written in an ancient Egyptian script?

Horner: No, because there's good reasons to doubt the integrity of the beginnings of the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith and the early followers, and that evidence has become more and more public in the last ten, fifteen years causing a lot of problems within the Mormon Church.

Till: O.K., I'll have some comments to make on that later on in my speech, but I want to get in as many questions as I can to get a feeling for where you stand on certain issues. Do you believe any of the reports of those who say that they have seen Elvis Presley alive after his death as publicized?

Horner: No, and for you to bring that up I just find is a little bit ridiculous, because we all know that the whole Elvis suggestion is funny because no one really believes it. We find reports about that in the Star, the National Enquirer. Nobody takes that seriously.

Till: O.K., would you believe that Elvis Presley was alive if someone told you that he had appeared to five hundred people at one time?

Horner: If there was some reason to believe that maybe there was something to that, one would have to check out the evidence. I mean, I couldn't answer "yes" or "no" without doing that.

Till: You are telling me that you would take the time check out the evidence if five hundred people reportedly saw Elvis Presley?

Horner: Well, if there were some suggestion that made me think that those reports could be trusted, and there were no good reasons to doubt the integrity of those reports, I would have to check it out before I could draw a final conclusion. I would be initially skeptical like everyone else, which would be reasonable, but I couldn't draw a final conclusion unless I had an a priori dismissal of miracles, but that's intellectually dishonest, so I couldn't do that.

Till: O.K., in "Wars of the Jews," the Jewish Historian, Josephus, reported that during the Roman siege of Jerusalem, that people saw chariots in the clouds and armored soldiers in the clouds surrounding the city. Do you believe that that happened?

Horner: I don't know. .

Till: In the same chapter -- by the way, if anyone wants to check this, this is in book six, chapter five, section three -- in the same chapter, Josephus reported the a heifer being led to the altar in the Temple gave birth to a lamb. Do you believe that that happened?

Horner: I don't know; I haven't checked into it.

Till: Well, why don't you believe these things because they're reported in a book that was written about the time that ...

Horner: I haven't heard about them until just now.

Till: Well, will you check on it then and let me know what you believe about it if you've never heard that before?

Horner: I'll check your stories ...

Till: You're serious? You've never heard that before?

Horner: No, I haven't checked into it.

Till: Well, read book six, chapter five, and you'll see that Josephus reported several miracles, astounding miracles that presumably happened.

Horner: I would require good evidence to believe it. At this point I haven't made that investigation so I can't draw a conclusion.

Till: O.K., the Roman historian, Suetonius, in "The Twelve Caesars," reported that when the Roman officials were arguing over where they were going to cremate the body of Julius Caesar, that two divine forms came down with torches and set fire to the pyre, and so he was cremated there. Do you believe that that happened?

Horner: Same response, Farrell. I don't know where this is leading.

Till: Well, I have the book over here and I can -- Michael Grant, by the way, translated this version that I have and you've been quoting him and so I'm assuming you would say it's an accurate translation. If you want to see it, it's over here on my desk -- and these were things that were written about that time, so I just wonder why you are questioning these ...

Horner: Well, I don't question them. I haven't heard of them until now. And I would be willing to analyze them. It would probably be true to say that you dismiss them without even checking them. Which seems to be the more reasonable approach?

</H4>

 

[JerryL]

Yea. The inconsistancy on standards of evidence is a huge problem for the Christian here. They support their claims with claims which are, themselves, unsupported... I believe the term is "house of cards".

 

[michel]

This has some interesting arguement on 500. I thought everyone might be interested to read it:

From a real conversation:

Rich Man: Father, Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Abraham: Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Rich Man: I pray therefore, father, that thou would send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come unto this place of torment.

Abraham: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Rich Man: Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Abraham: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Fluffy]

That is not a real conversation AV1611. It never took place.

 

[michel]

That is not a real conversation AV1611. It never took place.

Yeah, right. I just made it up out of thin air?

 

[Ardhanariswar]

It could be true. But then again, people have seen UFOs, bigfoot... Maybe they exist too? Who knows.

So many people in history have been able to do paranormal things. Jesus' reserection could be a ghost perhaps, or maybe his death caused so much tragedy that people hallucinated or dreamed is resserction.

I dont know. I dont mean to insult your bible, but its a history/story book, and things are possibly made up. There can be so many explanations for the 500 witnesses...

 

[JerryL]

Yeah, right. I just made it up out of thin air?

No, some other liar did. You simply repeated it.

 

[Fluffy]

Yeah, right. I just made it up out of thin air?

No. I was just trying to show you that your assertion that it was real was worth the same amount as my assertion that it was not real. Additionally, I wished to demonstrate that in a debate, there is no room for this type of assertion.

 

[michel]

So many people in history have been able to do paranormal things.

Like bending spoons or achieving kundalini?

 

[michel]

No. I was just trying to show you that your assertion that it was real was worth the same amount as my assertion that it was not real. Additionally, I wished to demonstrate that in a debate, there is no room for this type of assertion.

That was not a real conversation AV1611. It never took place.

I guess you really showed me, didn't you?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Like bending spoons or achieving kundalini?

... or psychotic episodes on the road to Damascus.

 

[michel]

No, some other liar did. You simply repeated it.

Romans 3:4 = ...YEA, LET GOD BE TRUE, BUT EVERY MAN A LIAR...

1 John 2:22 = WHO IS A LIAR BUT HE THAT DENIETH THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST?

We'll just have to let God decide the issue, won't we? Or has it already been decided?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Romans 3:4 = ...
1 John 2:22 = ...

Worthess source.

 

[JerryL]

We'll just have to let God decide the issue, won't we? Or has it already been decided?

The truth is whatever the truth is... but spouting rhetoric does not give you good claim to it.