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Calvinism vs Arminianism

SaintAugustine

At the Monastery
While St. Augustine, Calvin, Paul, and even Jesus himself (Matthew 7:13-14) would seem to back Limited Atonement, along with the examples of Noah's salvation and Lot's from ultimate destruction....

There are verses which seem to imply salvation is open to all..

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 john 2:2

2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world!" John 1:29

I still stand by Arminianism.

Can these two be reconiled thelogically..I believe so.
 

doulosChristou

New Member
There are verses which seem to imply salvation is open to all..
I don't think they do when interpreted in context. Consider...

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 john 2:2
Firstly, what is an "atoning sacrifice"? What does it mean to propitiate something? It means to turn the wrath of God away. If Christ has actually acted as a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, then no one can go to hell, because the penalty of all sins (including unbelief) have been satisfied, period. To say that Christ is the propitiation or atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world is a completely different thing than saying that Christ's atonement makes a way of salvation possible for the whole world. To propitiate for one's sins means it's all done; the wrath of God has been turned away and He will no longer look on that sinner with a need to cast judgment. To say, on the other hand, that Christ's atonement simply made a way of salvation possible, is not to say that everyone's sins have actually been propitiated for already, but only that he has offered them the opportunity for their sins to be propitiated. That's not the same thing. So the only way you can understand this verse is either as teaching universalism, or we must understand the "whole world" in a different sense. I like what Murray says on this text. He writes:

"We can find several reasons why John should have said 'for the whole world' without in the least implying that his intent was to teach what the proponents of universal atonement allege. There is good reason why John should have said 'for the whole world' quite apart from the assumption of universal atonement.

1. It was necessary for John to set forth the scope of Jesus' propitiation--it was not limited in its virtue and efficacy to the immediate circle of disciples who had actually seen and heard and handled the Lord in the days of his sojourn upon earth (see I John 1:1-3), nor to the circle of believers who came directly under the influence of the apostolic witness (see I John 1:3, 4). The propitiation which Jesus himself is extends in its virtue, efficacy, and intent to all in every nation who through the apostolic witness came to have fellowship with the Father and the Son (see I John 1:5-7). Every nation and kindred and people and tongue is in this sense embraced in the propitiation. It was highly necessary that John . . . should stress the ethnic universalism of the gospel . . .

2. It was necessary for John to emphasize the exclusiveness of Jesus as the propitiation. It is this propitiation that is the one and only specific for the remission of sin. [In other words, when we read texts that speak of Jesus as "the Savior of the world," the sense is that he alone is "the world's Savior." In other words, there is no Savior in the world but Him. John 1:29 would fall into this category as well.]

3. It was necessary for John to remind his readers of the perpetuity of Jesus' propitiation. It is this propitiation that endures as such through all ages. . . .

Hence the scope, the exclusiveness, and the perpetuity of the propitiation provided sufficient reason for John to say, "not for ours only but also for the whole world." And we need not suppose that John was here enunciating a doctrine of propitiation that is distributively universal in its extent."

- Murray, Redemption--Accomplished and Applied, 73-74

2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
This text is simply a contextual issue. If we allow for it to be read in context, it can't be understood to be making a universal reference. Peter makes a distinction between two groups of people in the context. The "beloved," and "them," who were the mockers/scoffers. Look at verses 1-8. He is addressing the "beloved," Christians, contrasting them from "them," the scoffers. And then he says, "The Lord is patient with you [hymas]," referring to the Christians he is addressing. So think about what he's saying here. He's talking to Christians, telling them not to be discouraged by the fact that there are scoffers who are mocking the fact that Christ seems to be delayed in His return. So what he does to encourage them is he gives them the reason why Christ's return appears to be delayed -- He is being patient, not wanting "any" to perish but "all" to come to repentance.

But does this "any" and "all" refer to all of humanity? No, in fact it can't. It would make no sense in the context. "Any" [tinas] and "all" [pantas] are simply reference words. They always rely on the context in which they are used for their reference to be defined. If we simply read the text and automatically assume that "any" and "all" must mean every single human being that ever lived, we are imposing a context onto these words that the text may not necessarily intend. And given the context of the present passage, it is the case that a universal reference is not what is intended.

Consider it carefully. What is the reason why Christ's return appears to be delayed? Peter says the reason is that He is being patient. And that patience is cited as the result of His desire for men to be saved. However, who is the object of that patience? Peter says that Christ is being patient toward you, that is, the beloved. So, given this context, how would you make sense of the claim that the "any" and "all" are universal references? Peter limits the audience to which these descriptives refer as a specific group, in contrast to another specific group. In other words, he is saying "any [and] all of you," in contrast to the rest, "them." It would make no sense for Peter to make this distinction and then make a universal statement. If his statement here is intended to give courage to the Christians, by telling them that Christ is being patient toward them, then why would it make sense, in that context, for Peter to them say that He desires every person, both the beloved, and the scoffers, to be saved? Christ's patience isn't for the scoffers. It's for the beloved. And that patience is the result of His desire to save. Hence, if the patience is only for some, so is the desire only for some, and the "any" and "all" are limited by the context to refer to the "you." It makes no sense to say that Christ desires for every single person in the world to be saved, if He is only being patient toward the beloved, in contrast with the scoffers.

And this makes sense, if you think about it. Consider, what if Christ came back tomorrow? If He did, and if we understand 2 Peter 3:9 to have a universal reference, then couldn't the argument be made that if Christ had just waited one more day, He could have saved even more? After all, if we understand 2 Peter 3:9 to have a universal reference, then we must believe that Christ wants to save as many as possible. But if that is the case, then why come back at all? Why not just continue to allow time to progress on and on so that more and more people would come to Him? What if Christ had come back 100 years ago, so that you and I never existed?

I think a much more consistent way to understand the text is that His patience is for the elect, because He does not wish any [of the elect] to perish, but for all [of the elect] to come to repentance. Hence, the reason why He has yet to return is not because He is just hoping to save "as many as possible," but because He is waiting for the full number of the elect to be brought into existence. And once that last member of the elect comes into existence and turns to Christ by faith, Christ's patience will be complete, and He will return, bringing the end.
 
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SaintAugustine

At the Monastery
the fact is that free grace was what the early christians practiced...from slave to emperor...the gates were opened to all, anywhere, anytime....and while there are verses that make it clear that God keeps you from certain direct attacks on your salvation, your spiritual automony can unnwind it at anytime....free will still is the trump card with God. God may press you...may call you..may even lay out directions and clues..but You gotta wanna.....you gotta say, Yes.
 
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While St. Augustine, Calvin, Paul, and even Jesus himself (Matthew 7:13-14) would seem to back Limited Atonement, along with the examples of Noah's salvation and Lot's from ultimate destruction....

There are verses which seem to imply salvation is open to all..

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 john 2:2

2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world!" John 1:29

I still stand by Arminianism.

Can these two be reconiled thelogically..I believe so.


CONSIDER:

Whether God called a few, or not is irrelevant. God is OUTSIDE the creation.

We are inside teh creation. We still have to live these lives.

God knowing how we will answer and seeing our whole lives, and knowing them before we are born, doesn't remove us from having to make the decisions.

Look at creation as a finished product, like a painting, complete, no more drying or strokes to be added. Now, inside that painting, we still have the linearlity of time that must be played out. Moses, Noah, Abraham and YOUR and MY deaths, are in the same flash to GOD, but are thousands of years apart to us.

We still have to choose in our lives. IF we are chosen, we have to choose right, if not we still have to face the choice. So this whole conversation, (not yours Calvins) is pointless.

And I'd say anyone who had to commit murder to make his theology stick...... is to be questioned.
 
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