1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Calling others to repentance

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by idea, Dec 1, 2015.

  1. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,856
    Ratings:
    +489
    Religion:
    seeker
    "When a person tells you that you hurt them, you don't get to decide that you didn't" - Louis C.K.

    All of my personal relationships- my marriage, my parenting, my friendships (with others AND myself) deepen and strengthen when I remember to be curious about feelings instead of defensive.

    When someone says: "You hurt me" - that's an invitation into her heart. When we respond with: "I'm sorry. I'm listening. Please tell me more" we get invited deeper.

    Can you imagine how much racial equality, interfaith harmony, and our understanding around gender and sexual differences would increase if we could get curious about the pain of strangers instead of defensive?

    Love you. Stay curious about yourself and others. Everybody is so interesting.

    G


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    While I can see the point of the above in some circumstances, I see the other side of the coin too.



    Example: Someone feeling "hurt" by the top student blowing the curve on a test, or getting the job, or __(fill in the blank)___. They hurt them self by not studying, or not not being the best candidate, or _______. Often people blame their problems on others who have their act together, rather than admitting their own faults...



    and then there are the cases where you have to ask "why did they "hurt" you? Was it because you "hurt" them first? did you provoke them? In most cases (not all), at least part of the fault lies within the person who feels hurt.

    I have found that easily offended people - or easily "hurt" people are often those who refuse to admit their own faults.

    When you can admit your own faults, you are less "hurt" by others - you are more forgiving of others. Others are most likely just following human nature, doing the same things that you too would be doing in similar circumstances. You can see this if you can admit you are not perfect either.

    Coddling easily offended people allows them to wallow in the delusion that their problems are all caused by others which is not healthy. I think a real friend is someone who is not afraid to "tell it how it is" (AKA defend themself - which often entails calling the other person to repentance) when needed.



    What does everyone here think?

    When have you called someone to repentance? and how did you do it?
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    26,365
    Ratings:
    +10,485
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Sure you do. Some people like laying guilt trips on others, which calls for a practical assessment. OR, they may simply overstate their injury, which may, again, call for a practical assessment. In such cases I won't hesitate to decide if their hurt is warranted. Louis C.K had his head up his *** when he said that.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,856
    Ratings:
    +489
    Religion:
    seeker
    Thank you!!! It's nice that someone agrees with me... (unlike fb)

    another thing that irritated me about the above -

    "You hurt me" - that's an invitation into her heart." ????!!!!!

    That is not an invitation to someone's heart!!!???

    Who here agrees that many easily offended people - or easily "hurt" people are often those who refuse to admit their own faults, and spend all their time blaming others for their problems?


    Another point
    "you hurt me.... you did this.... you did that.... you you you -

    Vs. "I felt hurt, I did this, I _____..."
    It's always better to use "I" statements.
     
    #3 idea, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  4. psychoslice

    psychoslice Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15,613
    Ratings:
    +4,136
    Religion:
    my own religion
    So what, people who are neurotic can never be satisfied, no matter what we do.
     
  5. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,654
    Ratings:
    +12,614
    Religion:
    Druidry
    What do I think?

    A few things that come to mind which aren't polite to say, so I'll leave those be. Instead, let's say
    I think that one should be
    very careful about the assumptions one makes, avoid playing blame games entirely, and do a lot of active listening. I don't "call people to repentance." I listen to what they have to say; I let them tell their story and get my ego out of the way. Not interested in being judgmental and finger pointing. Interested in listening, understanding, and then, if it's part of my job or if it is asked for, helping as I can.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,856
    Ratings:
    +489
    Religion:
    seeker
    Sorry, but it sounds like you are the one who wants to save your own ego here. The way to "look good" in these types of situations is to nod your head, listen, pat them on the back, tell them you agree with them, and coddle them.

    The right thing to do (point out the painful mistakes they are making, suggest what they can do if they want to be happy, not enable them to continue in destructive behavior) involves being the "messenger" - they will try to "kill the messenger", it will involve a lot of selfless work to take them through AA or whatever program they are going to need to get through, you will get called names, it can turn into a financial burden - but in the end, if they are able to actually face and fix their problems, it will be worth it.

    So - who really is the nice guy - the one who does not make someone face their faults, who coddles, smiles, and supports destructive behavior...

    or the one who calls someone else to repentance (just make sure they are being correctly judged). It takes guts to be judgmental, no one wants to hear about their faults - but if the judgmental people around you are dishing out accurate information - have the guts to listen to it, change, and improve yourself. This is how we improve.

    If it is my job? It's everyone's job to help everyone else out.
     
  7. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,654
    Ratings:
    +12,614
    Religion:
    Druidry

    I'm having a great deal of trouble comprehending how you went from me saying "listen and understand what people are saying in a non-judgmental fashion (aka, with your own ego out of the picture)" to this conclusion. Do you understand what active listening is, and have you taken courses or workshops on it?



    This is not at all what I was suggesting, nor what I said. Again, I'm having much trouble comprehending where this is coming from, other than something about chips and shoulders, perhaps.
     
  8. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,856
    Ratings:
    +489
    Religion:
    seeker
    you said "I don't "call people to repentance." I listen to what they have to say; I let them tell their story and get my ego out of the way"


    You claimed that "not calling people to repentance" made you somehow free of ego, and I very much disagree with that.

    "I don't "call people to repentance" = "I want everyone to love me (ego speaking)"

    The ego wants to be liked, and you will not be liked if you tell someone to repent. I do agree that everyone needs to listen, and be very careful that their judgement are just before they call someone to repent though.

    So, if after you do your active listening, after you understand the issue, if you have to deal with someone who has an actual problem - they are lazy, or addicted to drugs, or ___________ ... I'm sure that if there is an honest problem, that yes, you would call them to repentance, and yes, you would judge them. ... just as you judged me in the previous post to have a "chip on my shoulder" :) hmmmm... I feel like you were not "actively" listening to my post....
     
    #8 idea, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  9. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,654
    Ratings:
    +12,614
    Religion:
    Druidry

    No, I did not. You are certainly free to disagree with something that I did not say, however. Or with the things I did actually say. I don't care either way. But I do take issue with people not understanding what I'm saying and outright misconstruing what I say. Stop it.



    Nope, not what I said. Not even remotely.

    I notice you didn't answer my question before about active listening, but based on this, I'm guessing the answer is "no" based on these responses. I would highly recommend a workshop on active listening. Not only is it an extremely important skill to build, but you'll probably understand what I was encouraging there in that initial post. Listening. Simple listening. Dropping the assumptions, the judgmentalism, the ego, and just listening to people. Such a simple thing, yet something so many people are so very, very terrible at. It's sad, really.
     
  10. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,856
    Ratings:
    +489
    Religion:
    seeker
    Are you calling me to repentance? Are you judging me that I am not an active listener? I quoted exactly what you said. You claimed that you do not judge anyone, and that you do not call anyone to repentance... but then you just judged me, and you just called me to repent so.... You claim to understand what active listening is, and yet you are not listening to me.

    Simple question - after you have done all of the active listening, and you find that there is an actual real honest problem .... then you must agree that it is time to stand up and call someone to repent.
     
  11. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,654
    Ratings:
    +12,614
    Religion:
    Druidry
    *sigh*

    Tell you what. I'll answer your question if you actually answer my question. Which is generous, considering you're still misconstruing what I'm saying, whether deliberately or unintentionally.

    Bonus question: what do you mean by "repent?" Quite honestly, that's not the sort of language I would ever use, seeing as how I don't come from a religion that accepts "original sin" and the need to "repent" for such things.
     
  12. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,856
    Ratings:
    +489
    Religion:
    seeker
    "repent" is not a bad word. The concept can be used with or without attachment to Christianity. Actually, the original Greek word that was translated "repent" was horribly translated, and I think everyone would be much happier with the original word which is this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(psychology)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(theology)
    The meaning of the Greek metanoia/μετάνοια is very different from the meaning of the English repentance, and the meaning of the Greek metanoeō/μετανοέω is very different from the meaning of the English repent. Therefore, Walden describes the translation ofmetanoia as repentance as "an extraordinary mistranslation."[19]...Reviewing translations of metanoeō/μετανοέω and metanoia/μετάνοια as repent or repentance, the biblical scholar J. Glentworth Butler noted that, in the Greek, there is none of the sorrow or regret contained in the words repentance and repent.[23]...
    Regarding John the Baptist's call to "repent" as a translation of the Greek metanoeite, Robertson quotesBroadus as saying that this is "the worst translation in the New Testament." Repent means "to be sorry," but John's call was not to be sorry, but to change mental attitudes [metanoeite] and conduct.[28]

    Other scholars have characterized the translation of metanoia/μετάνοια as "repentance" with similar negativity. Repentance is an "unsuitable" translation.[29] It is "totally inadequate" to carry the meaning of metanoia.[30]


    So... how do you talk someone into - not "feeling horrible", but instead "changing their conduct"? I suppose you have to give them hope? give them reason to change?


    metanoia
    meta - change (like metastable state is in a state of flux)
    noia - your mind (paranoia etc.)
    Change how you see reality.


    This is a great TED talk on what it is to be wrong, what we do in order to feel like we are right, how we react to people when we're wrong etc.:

    Kathryn Schulz: On being wrong

    To summarize:
    People who are dead wrong (but still think they are right)
    think others are
    a) "ignorant" (you have not had an active listening course have you?)
    b) "evil" (This is some evil Christian thing to make me feel bad, isn't it?)

    but then the third option
    c) perhaps they are not ignorant or evil, perhaps they are right that we should be calling one another to repent - this is the pill that is hard to swallow, so everyone goes around with the mindset that everyone else is "evil and ignorant" rather than considering the possibility that they might be wrong etc.


    I will repeat my thesis from the OP -
    People who are easily offended and hurt by others are often people who are the most afraid of "repentance", they would rather think ill of others, than admit that they were wrong. Admitting you are wrong does not need to be something that makes you feel bad, the point of it is to change yourself - change how you see reality - and change yourself for the better.

    Have to run, thank you for the comments!
     
    #12 idea, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
Loading...