Calling all Catholics

[Quiddity]

How long you been a catholic?

Why are you in this forum?

Tell us a little about yourself.

 

[metis]

How long you been a catholic?

Well, I sorta am and sorta not Catholic. I converted to Catholicism when 30, later converted to Judaism when 50, but then left the synagogue and am just attending my wife's Catholic church. Since I never was formally excommunicated from the Church, and since my theology is very open as are many other Catholics, I'm sorta in a state of limbo that I'm actually fairly comfortable with. Will I eventually decide to return and be in communion? I don't know but I have rolled the thought around.

Why are you in this forum?

I'm very ecumenically minded, and I like to discuss such matters.

Tell us a little about yourself.

I have to be very brief as someone's coming over soon.

I am a retired anthropologist who taught the subject for 30 years, as well as teaching political science for 25 years. I love studying theology, and I used to teach the RCIA program for 14 years, taught the Lunch & Learn program with the rabbi for around 15 years at my synagogue, and I taught a comparative religions class for two years.

My return back at least towards Catholicism has been a very bizarre story that even I have trouble understanding the full parameters of, but I don't have the time now to get into it. I've put some of it out before on a couple different threads, but there's been some development even sense I posted last.

Maybe later today or tomorrow I can spell it out without writing a book, but you might want to have me committed after reading it.

 

[Quiddity]

Awesome!

I appreciate you stopping by.

I love anthropology by the way! One of my favorite topics in college.

Come by later and fill in the complexity of your story. I'd love to hear it.

 

[Kenny]

I'm very ecumenically minded, and I like to discuss such matters.

- Well.... since Catholic Church means "Universal" can I say we are brothers? OMG - I hope I didn't scare you.

Since I never was formally excommunicated from the Church, and since my theology is very open as are many other Catholics, I'm sorta in a state of limbo that I'm actually fairly comfortable with.

It's OK Metis... as it said "Nothing can separate you from Him"

Blessings, my friend.

 

[metis]

- Well.... since Catholic Church means "Universal" can I say we are brothers? OMG - I hope I didn't scare you.

Ya, even though I find myself often towing the CC company line, you know well that the reality is that I'm very ecumenical, which also includes agnostics and atheists and even someone as strange as off the wall as you. Remember, I have a theology degree in IDon'tKnowism.

It's OK Metis... as it said "Nothing can separate you from Him"

Blessings, my friend.

You're a top-shelf kinda guy, and Blessings back atcha.

 

[Kenny]

You're a top-shelf kinda guy, .

Just as long that doesn't mean that I am so high, no one can reach me. Besides, I heard the higher you are the harder you fall...

 

[metis]

Awesome!

I appreciate you stopping by.

I love anthropology by the way! One of my favorite topics in college.

Come by later and fill in the complexity of your story. I'd love to hear it.

Thank you so much, and since I have a bit of time I'll tell ya what happened, but please realize that I'm going to have to keep this as short as possible even though it's really the details that still amazes even me, but that would involve me writing a book.. So, here's the Reader's Digest Condensed Version of it.

I've been married to the most wonderful Italian Catholic woman for 51 years come March, and one thing she knows about me is that I am not at all superstitious-- but she also now knows what happened even though I had to keep her in the dark for quite a while for what will be obvious reasons for you.

Two years ago, I was at 11:00 mass with my wife while I was still affiliated with my synagogue, and all of a sudden out of nowhere came this flash "C is praying at 11:00 mass". Now C [her initial] was an old girlfriend of mine whom was literally a life-changer for me. Like my wife, she was and is an Italian Catholic who simply was the single nicest person I had met at that time-- so loving and compassionate. Our relationship didn't last due to a mistake I made (another long story), but when I met my wife-to-be near the end of that relationship, seeing much the same characteristics in her as I had seen in C, I fell in love with her and we got married not quite a year later.

However, back to two years ago, these "C is praying..." premonitions kept happening, and I never could predict when they would pop up. It was driving me nuts since what was this all about? And certain unbelievable things kept happening that clearly showed that this was not just a by-product of my imagination nor just coincidences. Still, I couldn't tell me wife about this.

Was the Boss responsible for this? I didn't know but I couldn't explain this any other way. I had no control over these premonitions, plus certain things happened to indicate that there simply was no other explanation. A "spiritual connection"? Maybe-- I don't know, but I more and more think that's most likely.

I had been tossing around the idea of leaving my synagogue for mainly logistics problems (night driving) as they had moved almost all the services to Friday nights. So, what do I do? I didn't know.

[this next part I've never posted here before]

A year ago last fall, I kept on having a reoccurring thought that I must revisit the Catholic church I went to with C over 50 years ago, which was also the very first Catholic church I ever attended services at, and it was located on the university property that C and I had attended over 50 years ago that's about a three-hour drive from where we live. Over and over again this impulse kept popping into my mind, and then I remembered what Gandhi said, namely if you have repeatedly strong feelings you should do something, make sure it's moral first and, if so, do it and don't make excuses not to.

But how do I sell this to me wife, who well knows the story of C and I? Well, several months after this strong feeling, we received an invitation to visit a casino that we have never been to before, and it's located not that far from the university and the church. Unbelievable. At this point, I told her about the reoccurring premonitions as well as my strong feelings to go to the church, so we went to the casino on a Sunday morning and dropped her off, and then I continued on to the church, somehow making in time for the mass.

I honestly didn't know what to expect. Was I going to just sit there with tears in my eyes (I already had a lot of them because of how she changed my life and how I let her down when I left her-- the most depressing day of my 72 years of life). Instead, the church service was so open and joyous as compared to what it was 50 years ago, and when I got to the Lord's Prayer, which I had not said in about 25 years, I held the hand of a young woman next to me that reminded me of C, and like a wave of euphoria swept over me. After the mass was over, I just sat there trying to digest what was going on with me-- and then it hit:

C was someone who changed my life, and it was all for the better, but then my wife came into my life, and she took over from there. IOW, I was in love with two Catholic angels who for some reason loved me. But it was the latter one whereas we were better matched, especially since we both are pretty goofy people, constantly picking on each other in a very positive way. In 50 years of marriage, we only had one argument whereas we went to bed angry, but the next morning we got up and just laughed at how stupid we were/

Now, I've become quite active in the church, and the priest and education department are interested in having me even teach some adult programs there because of my background. I feel very much at home, and I feel very BLESSED to have guardian angels like C, my wife, and some others in my life. I'm still shocked how this all happened-- just don't ask me to explain it because it's beyond me-- I just know that it did happen.

 

[Quiddity]

I wouldn't ask......because I get it.

I've had one myself for many years that I don't know what it means and I'm not sure where it ends.

Truth be told, I'm a rather stoic Catholic [and or] religious individual. If atheists walked like ducks, I'd probably walk just like them. If atheism is about analyzing, probing, asking, etc. that is still a huge part of me and to some extent what gets me into skirmishes with other Catholics. I don't drop or leave things alone very well. I've struggled with one question for 15 years and never let it go......it eats at me obsessively......and I go to the ends of the earth until I find something intellectually honest; even if I don't like what I'm hearing. I suppose you can call that a flaw as you can easily lose sight of things and people that matter. Don't recommend it and neither does my wife. Everything comes easy to her..........but not me.

Part of that is my distaste and flirtation with Protestantism, LDS, and atheism in that order. Much good came from all of those, and I know me saying distaste isn't very ecumenical, but one view that hasn't changed in me is the idea that objective truth is not just out there, but it must be something protected by a system or methodology. One of many reasons why the scientific method for example has been successful. It doesn't have to exist because I want it to exist or because it makes me feel fuzzy inside; but because taken to it's logical conclusions, things outside and inside of ourselves operate this way. Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God. Things that form, have a purpose and also follow a system and only those things can be said to succeed. We are the only anomaly in the cosmos that can choose to refuse it all and even choose death. Sorry, a bit abstract, but it took years of reading philosophers of different flavors to even consider the CC.......long story as well.

One of these days I'd love to explore your view of ecumenism.

 

[metis]

One of these days I'd love to explore your view of ecumenism.

My ecumenism also has its limitations, especially in two areas, with one of them being theological certainty and the other being the "my way or the highway" approach. IOW, I think there's a danger when we think we have "the answers" in an arena whereas there really is no certainty. Reminds me of Augustine's famous response when asked if he had the answers, and his response was "Answers? I'm not even too sure what the questions are". [paraphrased]

Let me recommend a book that may be right up your alley based on what you wrote, and that is "A Book Forged In Hell: Spinoza's Scandalous Treatise and the Birth of the Secular Age" by Steven Nadler. It's a book that is not so much biographical but is very much philosophical. The title is a bit misleading as Spinoza was a theist, but more along the line of panentheism/pantheism, and Einstein said that he believed in "Spinoza's God". Very thought provoking book even if one were to disagree with his main premise.

 

[Quiddity]

My ecumenism also has its limitations, especially in two areas, with one of them being theological certainty and the other being the "my way or the highway" approach. IOW, I think there's a danger when we think we have "the answers" in an arena whereas there really is no certainty. Reminds me of Augustine's famous response when asked if he had the answers, and his response was "Answers? I'm not even too sure what the questions are". [paraphrased]

Let me recommend a book that may be right up your alley based on what you wrote, and that is "A Book Forged In Hell: Spinoza's Scandalous Treatise and the Birth of the Secular Age" by Steven Nadler. It's a book that is not so much biographical but is very much philosophical. The title is a bit misleading as Spinoza was a theist, but more along the line of panentheism/pantheism, and Einstein said that he believed in "Spinoza's God". Very thought provoking book even if one were to disagree with his main premise.

Will do.

I don't completely disagree with this actually. Which is why, oddly enough I'm quite attracted to mystery and "we don't know" responses within the CC. I'm sure you can relate to that.

However, it's a tricky thing to say we have limitations and in the same breath say we don't have answers. The very act of having limitations is a conclusion of answers.

Thanks....I'll check it out.

 

[metis]

Which is why, oddly enough I'm quite attracted to mystery and "we don't know" responses within the CC. I'm sure you can relate to that.

Yes, and what's so funny in a way is that so many non-Catholics, and even a number of Catholics themselves, don't realize that Catholicism isn't an entity whereas we are to blindly follow the leader. It is quite acceptable to question things, including the Pope and even the inerrancy of the scriptures. As you well know, the Church teaches what it thinks is more likely to be right, which is their duty, but it's up to the individual to process that and decide which way to go.

A Catholic-authored book I read many years ago was entitled "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide", and that was its main point.

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, and what's so funny in a way is that so many non-Catholics, and even a number of Catholics themselves, don't realize that Catholicism isn't an entity whereas we are to blindly follow the leader. It is quite acceptable to question things, including the Pope and even the inerrancy of the scriptures. As you well know, the Church teaches what it thinks is more likely to be right, which is their duty, but it's up to the individual to process that and decide which way to go.

A Catholic-authored book I read many years ago was entitled "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide", and that was its main point.

It's much worse. Traditionalist Catholics are brutal towards the magisterial and the Pope. It makes this forum look like girl scouts in comparison. The political spectrum within the walls of Catholicism is quite lively and is probably not as extreme as our American spectrum, but it's quite close.

But really, history is replete with examples of Catholics bickering about everything under the sun; not all of it bad, but it certainly did get ugly at times.

Yes of course our conscience should guide us, but there is a collective conscience that we as catholics have a duty to enjoy. We aren't following nilly willy.......otherwise our conscience can go in any direction it strikes fancy and that can be quite dangerous. Spinoza struggled with authority in general and his thoughts were the beginning of something good and dangerous at the same time.

 

[metis]

Yes of course our conscience should guide us, but there is a collective conscience that we as catholics have a duty to enjoy.

Yes, but that "collective conscience" is pretty basic, and in today's Church you rarely ever hear of one getting excommunicated, or threatened as such, unless they're clergy preaching the wrong stuff.

OTOH, us "commoners" are cut quite a bit of slack. My "theology" is about as liberal as one's could ever get, and yet the priest at our church not only gives me no trouble, he even encouraged me to get more active in the church, and I have.

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, but that "collective conscience" is pretty basic, and in today's Church you rarely ever hear of one getting excommunicated, or threatened as such, unless they're clergy preaching the wrong stuff.

OTOH, us "commoners" are cut quite a bit of slack. My "theology" is about as liberal as one's could ever get, and yet the priest at our church not only gives me no trouble, he even encouraged me to get more active in the church, and I have.

Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology talks more in depth about the consciousness of the church. It's not group think whereby Catholics gather and give their opinions, it's the echoes of time, or best known as Tradition.

Excommunication, does not exist in the same way anymore. It once did indeed separate, and not merely declare as separated, the person under that sentence. It was a legal act, Hence at one time those who committed great offenses were cast out and cut off from the body; It was a physical reality. As of 1983 only "minor excommunication" remains and that does not cut one off from the Church, but merely deprives one of certain rights and titles within the Church. Heresy and schism, if public, even if only material does place one outside the Church and in this case the canonical excommunication of yore would be "declarative" and nowadays would only be a legal declaration of some consequences, while still tolerating your presence among us.

So, it would not in the slightest be surprising if you were being advised by a heretical priest. Not saying you are, just saying it's more than possible for them to be part of the Church and still teach things not in accordance.

 

[pearl]

I am also a convert, from a Methodist church. But my conversion was for the wrong reasons, to please my soon to be Catholic husband's mother. About a year later I went to confession and forgetting the exact wording of the 'act of contrition', the priest yelled at me for not knowing it 'at my age'. I responded, I don't need this father and walked out. Never went back until our first child was old enough to receive first communion. I had to make a decision whether this legalistic institution expressed faith in the God I grew up with. I began reading starting from a history of the Church, especially the early liturgy. I attended a parent meeting for first communicants and thought I had come home. It was post Vatican II and as the priest was giving instructions as to the implementation of Vat II many made the accusation they were being turned into 'a bunch of Protestants'. But he was making perfect sense to me. Although I have to admit I was a little disappointed when we were told our daughters were not to wear white dresses.

I think progressive is a more apt label than liberal. And because a priest or bishop or pope is progressive in thinking does in no way make them heretical. There are many ultra traditionalist Catholics who consider anything past Trent is heresy. Fortunately, an Ecumenical Council with the pope is of the highest authority, so future more conservative popes are limited in what they can change.

 

[metis]

So, it would not in the slightest be surprising if you were being advised by a heretical priest. Not saying you are, just saying it's more than possible for them to be part of the Church and still teach things not in accordance.

That's not what has happened, and it has nothing to do with a "heretical priest"-- especially this one.

Being from and teaching from the Jewish tradition for over two decades, I already had taught two sessions previously with two different RCIA groups over what is behind Passover, so it was clear that I wasn't speaking as a Christian but as Jew covering a Jewish ceremony.

A year ago, I was involved as both an observer and a participant with some scriptural studies dealing with the general tone of scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but my active role was to only explain certain things that needed clarification within the Tanakh. IOW, I was not teaching Catholicism nor Christianity but, instead, covering certain questions that came up that needed clarification.

It is after these two episodes whereas I was asked if I'd be interested in maybe teaching a seminar by the director of education, and I said that, depending on the subject, that I might.

BTW, my wife and I have been going to this church for over four decades, so I'm pretty much a known entity. Matter of fact, I got a call from an earlier priest about 15 years ago about his being asked on behalf of the church for a donation to a certain Jewish organization, I told him I would contact Jewish Federation because I never heard the name before, and no such agency exists.

 

[Quiddity]

That's not what has happened, and it has nothing to do with a "heretical priest"-- especially this one.

Being from and teaching from the Jewish tradition for over two decades, I already had taught two sessions previously with two different RCIA groups over what is behind Passover, so it was clear that I wasn't speaking as a Christian but as Jew covering a Jewish ceremony.

A year ago, I was involved as both an observer and a participant with some scriptural studies dealing with the general tone of scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but my active role was to only explain certain things that needed clarification within the Tanakh. IOW, I was not teaching Catholicism nor Christianity but, instead, covering certain questions that came up that needed clarification.

It is after these two episodes whereas I was asked if I'd be interested in maybe teaching a seminar by the director of education, and I said that, depending on the subject, that I might.

BTW, my wife and I have been going to this church for over four decades, so I'm pretty much a known entity. Matter of fact, I got a call from an earlier priest about 15 years ago about his being asked on behalf of the church for a donation to a certain Jewish organization, I told him I would contact Jewish Federation because I never heard the name before, and no such agency exists.

Gotcha.

 

[Quiddity]

I am also a convert, from a Methodist church. But my conversion was for the wrong reasons, to please my soon to be Catholic husband's mother. About a year later I went to confession and forgetting the exact wording of the 'act of contrition', the priest yelled at me for not knowing it 'at my age'. I responded, I don't need this father and walked out. Never went back until our first child was old enough to receive first communion. I had to make a decision whether this legalistic institution expressed faith in the God I grew up with. I began reading starting from a history of the Church, especially the early liturgy. I attended a parent meeting for first communicants and thought I had come home. It was post Vatican II and as the priest was giving instructions as to the implementation of Vat II many made the accusation they were being turned into 'a bunch of Protestants'. But he was making perfect sense to me. Although I have to admit I was a little disappointed when we were told our daughters were not to wear white dresses.

I think progressive is a more apt label than liberal. And because a priest or bishop or pope is progressive in thinking does in no way make them heretical. There are many ultra traditionalist Catholics who consider anything past Trent is heresy. Fortunately, an Ecumenical Council with the pope is of the highest authority, so future more conservative popes are limited in what they can change.

I would recommend you stay away from the progressive vs traditionalist chatter; especially the pre-Vat2. There is conservative, than more conservative, than traditionalist, than radical traditionalist, and it also goes in the opposite direction on the more liberal side as well; It's going to make your head spin. Focus on being the best catholic and living out the faith. I made the mistake on taking on too many things when I converted and it drove me bonkers.

 

[pearl]

I would recommend you stay away from the progressive vs traditionalist chatter; especially the pre-Vat2

No worries, I stay to the center, where the Church is. Its simply a matter of discerning an authors' agenda among Catholic scholars. That's where one will find the accusations of heresy lodged against others.

Focus on being the best catholic and living out the faith

The realistic goal is to focus on faith and how that faith is lived out as a Catholic. I was fortunate enough to belong to a 'progressive' diocese with an emphasis on educating the laity not only on what is Catholic but where the Church is concerning ecumenism, best understood from reading collaborative works and the church's own documents. And most importantly making the connection with our Jewish faith heritage for without Israel there is no church.

I made the mistake on taking on too many things when I converted and it drove me bonkers.

Guidance is important. I was 18 when I converted, am now 75, and continue to be involved in Catholic education.

 

[Quiddity]

No worries, I stay to the center, where the Church is. Its simply a matter of discerning an authors' agenda among Catholic scholars. That's where one will find the accusations of heresy lodged against others.

Agenda is important to note and be wary about.........but not outright ignored. Why? Because sometimes those whom are right, are perceived as the crazies and least ecumenical. Take for example the Iconoclasm controversy within the Church; most bishops and a large number of Catholics were on the wrong side. True ecumenism isn't just about building bridges, but also about not being afraid to be the crazy one. I was center for a long time and have shifted just slightly to the right, but not by much. Mostly because of the dynamics of the liturgy.