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Featured Call no man Father

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Spiderman, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    So Elisha was without the gospel as we have it , your point? Maybe you'd rather bring up Isaac who cried 'my father' at some point, it won't help. It seems obvious that when it is used as something factual like, who begat you, then it isn't contradicting what Jesus said, but the argument is over what is being emphasized(Mat. 23:29-32).
     
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  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Using Father (capital F) and father (small f) gives a revealing of it's own. Jesus used the small f to show the things of flesh, something we are not to follow (over the spirit). Read this with that understanding to see truth:

    John 8:
    38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    The truth I see is that the Jews never saw the Father, but the father (flesh). Jesus was trying to make the same distinction (flesh and spirit) as I explained in my post above. We do not need the OT to identify who the Father is. Jesus did so without it. Which is why he became frustrated with such ignorance and said:

    46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

    47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    The god of the flesh, the God of the spirit.
     
  3. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    I don't think Jesus wants anyone to call another man (Father) meaning Holy Father or (father) meaning the devil.
     
  4. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Actually "Father" was associated with religious leaders in both Tanakh and NT.

    Jdg 17:10 And Micah said unto him, Dwell with me, and be unto me a father and priest, and I will give thee ten shekels of silver by the year, and a suit of apparel, and thy victuals. So the Levite went in.

    Jdg 18:19 And they said unto him, Hold thy peace, lay thine hand upon thy mouth, and go with us, and be to us a father and priest: is it better for thee to be a priest unto the house of one man, or that thou be a priest unto a tribe and a family in Israel?

    1Th 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, (Paul)

    1Co 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
    1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
    1Co 4:14
    I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
    1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
    1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

    1Co 4:15 clinches it. They have ten thousand instructors in Christ - but not many of them are yet Church Fathers.
    Also he very specifically considers himself FATHER - as he says he has BEGOTTEN them. And OBVIOUSLY he is saying he wants more of them to be FATHERS.


    And as PopeADope pointed out -

    Elisha cries, "My father, my father!" to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).

    Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

    Then Paul said
    1 Corinthians 4:15
    for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

    Funny how things get twisted over time - YES? Like the attack on Catholic FATHERS?

    *
     
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  5. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Jesus did away with that priesthood in favor of himself. Show me any of that in the new testament.
     
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  6. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

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    Do you believe it's wrong to kneel before graven images? Show me where it says that in the New Testament!
     
  7. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    There are no capitalized F's in the Greek sentences given.

    *
     
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  8. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Why are you kneeling before them? As Paul teaches it wouldn't be wrong in and of itself but if you believe in the graven images and kneel before them worshipping false Gods that would be wrong, or if someone sees you do it and you cause them to believe in false Gods their blood is on your hands.

    Show me where Jesus says to kneel before graven images or to worship false Gods similar to his instruction to call no man father.
     
  9. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Did you miss those NT verses?

    Obviously the Father Priest carried over into the NT, - and the early church.

    1Co 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
    1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
    1Co 4:14
    I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
    1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
    1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

    1Co 4:15 clinches it. They have ten thousand instructors in Christ - but not many of them are yet Church Fathers.

    Also he very specifically considers himself FATHER - as he says he has BEGOTTEN them. And OBVIOUSLY he is saying he wants more of them to be FATHERS.


    Very obviously the Church leaders/Priests are being called Fathers.

    *
     
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  10. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

    Nope, lets keep this in context. You may have 10,000 instructors but few fathers. Who have we seen Paul call father, Paul called himself father, why? Because he was writing scripture. What is the gospel? Scripture. So the only ones he is referring to as "father" is those who are writing scripture through the spirit of Christ. "In Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel" No Church leaders or wannabee priests are worthy of writing scripture, they are merely instructors of the scripture.
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    NOPE!

    Obviously after Father Elijah's death, - his student Elisha, became Father Elisha.

    2Ki 6:21 And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them?

    He straight out calls him FATHER.

    Thus we see these were called FATHER.

    *
     
  12. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    SEE #'s 24, 27, 29, 31.

    *
     
  13. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Elisha was more than a priest, Elisha was a prophet also writing scripture. So by the same way as the Apostles it would be ok to call Elisha a father, a father of scripture. because the Lord spoke to the king through the prophet.
     
  14. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    BULL, he is talking about 10,000 instructors, and AMONG THEM - not enough Fathers.

    He doesn't want them to start writing stories about a Jesus they didn't even know!

    And by the way - you would know the context if you read from the top and kept it in context.

    1Co 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

    1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

    NOT writers - MINISTERS.

    *
     
  15. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Wow! Better get my boots.

    And where are Elisha's writings? Where does Tanakh say Elisha was a writer of scripture?

    I have shown Priest/Prophets called FATHER in both Tanakh and NT.

    *
     
  16. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    If you look at the title of the chapter it would clue you in to who they are referring to. All 10,000 instructors may be called Stewards but not all Stewards are called Apostles. Only the Apostles write scripture.

    1 Corinthians 4
    New International Version
    The Nature of True Apostleship

    1This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
     
  17. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    He is a prophet, that's what prophets do, The Lord spoke through them, and what the Lord says becomes scripture.
     
  18. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    No, you haven't. You think you have.
     
  19. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

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    I'm not a fan of kneeling before images. If somebody does, I don't think it's wrong unless they consider the image to be God , and I don't know anybody that does.

    Ancient Israelites prostrated themselves before the Ark of the Covenant. God met them between two graven images. God also asked Moses to create a graven Serpent , and all who looked at it were healed.

    If images were so wrong, I would think surely Jesus or one of the authors of the New Testament would have condemned such practices.
     
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  20. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Jesus said the law was never meant to prohibit anyone from doing good. Since God is good anything God does is for good purpose, So God telling Moses to make the graven image was not breaking the law. The graven images prohibited are the ones devised by men.

    The Ark of the Covenant was the throne of God created by Gods design so I guess that is ok too.
     
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