California church shooting: 1 dead, 5 injured in Orange County

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah, we vote on a lot of stuff here. You want to keep calling it authoritarian but if that were true we wouldn't be able to vote on such things. That's not authoritarianism, that's democracy. We have tons more of it here than what I ever knew in Indiana.
But, yes, do keep saying we're authoritarian while you just made it obvious you don't know we stuff our ballots full of initiatives we get to vote on, and year round you can find people here and there gathering signatures to get these initiatives on ballots. That's the opposite of authoritarian.

Though they can be a bit of a pain in the backside. Some stores here ban them. They can still stand on the sidewalks outside of the stores.

 

[Heyo]

The plastic bag thing is a scam. You know who lobbied to charge for bags? The grocery industry! It wasn’t about the environment. It was about making corporations more money.

You want freebies and handouts? That's socialist!
Asking you to pay for something isn't a scam. Yes, it is about making more money. That's capitalism for you.

 

[Watchmen]

You want freebies and handouts? That's socialist!
Asking you to pay for something isn't a scam. Yes, it is about making more money. That's capitalism for you.

Didn’t ask for freebies. Didn’t ask for handouts. Just because something is charged for doesn’t make it capitalism.

 

[Heyo]

Can't be. California has the bestest gun laws around!

And yet it happened.
There are (at least) three possible explanation.

1. The laws are still not strict enough.
2. The laws are good but the enforcement isn't.
3. The laws are OK, the enforcement is OK but you can't prevent all.

If 3. you'd have to look further and compare statistics. Laws and enforcement seems to work in other countries. They have much less shooting than the US. I don't know how states in the US compare. Does anybody?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You want freebies and handouts? That's socialist!
Asking you to pay for something isn't a scam. Yes, it is about making more money. That's capitalism for you.

Anyone that has ever worked in retail above the clerk level should know that nothing is free. "Free samples" is a way for the store to pay advertising fees. The cost of that advertising will be averaged over all of the goods sold. If I got something "free" from the manufacturer I knew that I had bought that with the business that I had done in the past. I was not too likely to give it away.

 

[Altfish]

Can't be. California has the bestest gun laws around!

No, Europe has those

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yeah, we vote on a lot of stuff here. You want to keep calling it authoritarian but if that were true we wouldn't be able to vote on such things. That's not authoritarianism, that's democracy. We have tons more of it here than what I ever knew in Indiana.
But, yes, do keep saying we're authoritarian while you just made it obvious you don't know how we do things here and don't know we stuff our ballots full of initiatives we get to vote on, and year round you can find people here and there gathering signatures to get these initiatives on ballots. That's the opposite of authoritarian.

I don't think this instance gets Democrats off the hook. I still live in the Peoples Republic of New York over here.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You don't believe they are strict? Look at all the background checks and hoops. I assure you we don't have to do anywhere near that here. Several states now have constitutional carry where you don't have to have any permit to carry. And they have capacity limits and no loaded guns in the car and no so called assault rifles. Plus it's very expensive to get your permit there.

Well, what is your stance on a well regulated militia?

 

[Audie]

If you think that's the only thing that works...

Works to do what

 

[Audie]

The plastic bag thing is a scam. You know who lobbied to charge for bags? The grocery industry! It wasn’t about the environment. It was about making corporations more money.

Even if this were true, what is wrong with it?

If gro- sto were more profitable they could
cur prices. They do compete. Its the
dark side of (shudder ) capitalism.

ETA I see this point was already made

 

[Stevicus]

And yet it happened.
There are (at least) three possible explanation.

1. The laws are still not strict enough.
2. The laws are good but the enforcement isn't.
3. The laws are OK, the enforcement is OK but you can't prevent all.

If 3. you'd have to look further and compare statistics. Laws and enforcement seems to work in other countries. They have much less shooting than the US. I don't know how states in the US compare. Does anybody?

One of the things often mentioned in this context is that, since the laws vary from state to state, there's very little prevent someone from one state going to another state to buy firearms. While it may be technically illegal, there is no system in place to monitor or control traffic from state to state.

I was doing a bit of checking yesterday, and found a couple of sites of interest:

Mass Shootings by State 2022 (worldpopulationreview.com)

The top 5 states ranked by number of mass shootings:

California
Illinois
Florida
Texas
New York

The bottom 5 states with the least mass shootings:

Wyoming
North Dakota
New Hampshire
Idaho
Hawaii

Looking at this other map, it shows the variations in gun laws from state to state:

4 out of the 5 top states for mass shootings have more restrictive laws than other states, whereas 4 of 5 of the bottom states with the fewest mass shootings have much more lax firearms laws.

It's not clear where the shooter in this case obtained his weapon, although Arizona is just a three hour drive away from where this occurred.

In the Buffalo case, the shooter purchased the weapon legally in New York State, but they suspect he could have gone to Pennsylvania for the magazine. From where he was living (Conklin NY), Pennsylvania is just 5 or 6 miles away.

 

[esmith]

Thanks for the link. Now, tell me how California's gun laws are much stricter than the other 49 states in America.

Well now, I guess I can answer that question.
My state
No resrtictions on AR-15 style firearms
Concelled carry without permit
No permit to purchase a firearm
No restrictions on magazine size except for those under 16
No resrtictions of 50 caliber rifles
No background check for purchase of handgun if in possesion of concelled carry permit
Can sell a firearm to another person without going through a dealer
No restrictions on storage of a firearm

 

[Wildswanderer]

And this is an extremely defeatist attitude. "We can't stop all of them so why try to stop any of them?"

We stop the ones that we are able to stop.

Ok, how?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Well, what is your stance on a well regulated militia?

That's just the armed population..that exactly what it was when that was written.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, how?

Not all killings are well planned out. A person may do it spur of the moment. Locally a troubled school kid stole his father's gun and shot four people. At least three died. His father had bought that gun illegally. Locally if there was better communication he could not have bought that gun. If a gun safe was required to own a gun it might have been put away securely. There were ways to avoid that shooting. It was too easy to get a gun and people died as a result. Maybe these last two could not have been stopped, but many can be.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's just the armed population..that exactly what it was when that was written.

And again, this is correct. It is an example of the meaning of words and phrases changing over time. Just remember that the next time the situation is turned around.

Also in that same Supreme Court case where this was discussed it was said that the state could regulate what sort of firearms one has. That means a nationwide magazine limit would be constitutional. As would a limit on muzzle velocity from a standardized barrel.

 

[Secret Chief]

So just rather ignorant opinion.

Yes, they charge for bags at my store, but it appears that the money goes to the city to aid in cleaning up plastic. Do they? I hope so but I have no way of confirming it. The people I know at the local store say that all of the money goes to the city.

Paying for a plastic bag is pretty much standard in the UK now (for shops of any size). One-time use of plastic bags has dropped as a result. We re-use and/or use "lifetime" bags - you know, shopping bags like in the good old days. I know rightwingers love the good old days. Maybe we'll fill up the oceans with plastic and kill the fauna a bit less quickly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Paying for a plastic bag is pretty much standard in the UK now (for shops of any size). One-time use of plastic bags has dropped as a result. We re-use and/or use "lifetime" bags - you know, shopping bags like in the good old days. I know rightwingers love the good old days. Maybe we'll fill up the oceans with plastic and kill the fauna a bit less quickly.

I have a few of those bags myself and use them regularly. And by raising the price on plastic bags they were able to raise the quality. Locally they used to have the really cheap plastic bags where you would have to use at least two if anything you bought had some sort of edge on the packaging. They raised the price two more cents and started using decent plastic bags. I have reused those when I was not going directly to the store. They easily fit in a coat pocket. There is nothing wrong with trying to get people to live just a little more "green".

 

[Secret Chief]

I have a few of those bags myself and use them regularly. And by raising the price on plastic bags they were able to raise the quality. Locally they used to have the really cheap plastic bags where you would have to use at least two if anything you bought had some sort of edge on the packaging. They raised the price two more cents and started using decent plastic bags. I have reused those when I was not going directly to the store. They easily fit in a coat pocket. There is nothing wrong with trying to get people to live just a little more "green".

There's general acceptance across the board. Why should there be any objection? Even the Daily Mail (slightly to the right of Genghis Khan) had a campaign to get rid of wasteful "free" bags.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And again, this is correct. It is an example of the meaning of words and phrases changing over time.

What changed?