Cain & Able - Who did they marry?

[Mystic-als]

I have wondered about this fo a while now. The bible tells of Cain and Able having sisters. But if Adam and Eve were the first. Did Cain and Able commit insest?

 

[SoyLeche]

in·cest Pronunciation Key
n.

1. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.
2. The statutory crime of sexual relations with such a near relative.

Since they really didn't have much of a choice but to marry their sisters (besides possibly some older neices) - I can't immagine that the marriage was either illegal or forbidden by custom, so no, they didn't commit incest.

 

[Willamena]

I have wondered about this fo a while now. The bible tells of Cain and Able having sisters. But if Adam and Eve were the first. Did Cain and Able commit insest?

Two brothers don't have to sleep with each other in order to produce sisters.

Ah, I see what was meant. If they married their sisters in order to produce offspring, then yes, that is incest. But I think the Bible also mentions wives and people in far-off lands. Adam and Eve were just the first of the line of ancestors of the Hebrew, and eventually the Jews, God's Chosen People.

 

[SoyLeche]

Ah, I see what was meant. If they married their sisters in order to produce offspring, then yes, that is incest. But I think the Bible also mentions wives and people in far-off lands. Adam and Eve were just the first of the line of ancestors of the Hebrew.

Actually, no it isn't. Incest is determined by the laws and customs of the time. If there were no laws against marrying your sister, and it wasn't against the custom of the people, it was not incest. It was marrying your sister, but the term incest does not apply.

Also, would you please offer some refferences for what you have claimed the Bible mentions?

 

[Mystic-als]

It is there I read it the other day. I'll do a search for it in Genisis.

 

[Willamena]

Actually, no it isn't. Incest is determined by the laws and customs of the time. If there were no laws against marrying your sister, and it wasn't against the custom of the people, it was not incest. It was marrying your sister, but the term incest does not apply.

Also, would you please offer some refferences for what you have claimed the Bible mentions?

I disagree; incest is not a legal term. It is simply siblings or cousins having intercourse.

Genesis 4:13-15 - Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
But the LORD said to him, "Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. (Implying, of course, that there are people out there whom he might find in his wanderings.)

 

[SoyLeche]

I disagree; incest is not a legal term. It is simply siblings or cousins having intercourse.

Genesis 4:13-15 - Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
But the LORD said to him, "Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. (Implying, of course, that there are people out there whom he might find in his wanderings.)

Care to back that up? Every definition on dictionary.com says that it is sex between people too closely related to marry. That can be determined by either the legal system or the culture of the time and place. If they aren't considered too closely related to marry, it isn't incest. Until you can show me a more reputable source for the meaning of the word than The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.

That verse only implys that there were other people around if you want it to. Where are we told that Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's first children? It is possible that they had many children, and grandchildren, and even great grand children before Cain and Abel were born. I mean, cummon, Adam was 130 years old when Seth (the next child that we know the name of) was born. In 130 years a man and woman with nothing else to do can have a lot of kids. There could have been a fairly sizable population of Adam and Eve's descendants at the time, and they might not have all known one another all that well.

Notice I have said might alot. I'm just pointing out other possibilities.

 

[SoyLeche]

Webster Illustrated Contemporary Dictionary, Encyclopedic Edition:

Incest - Sexual intercours between persons too closely related for legal marriage

That's 2 reputable dictionaries on my side. Let's see what you've got.

 

[Willamena]

Care to back that up? Every definition on dictionary.com says that it is sex between people too closely related to marry. That can be determined by either the legal system or the culture of the time and place. If they aren't considered too closely related to marry, it isn't incest. Until you can show me a more reputable source for the meaning of the word than The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0488196.html

If you like, I'd be happy to amend my statement to say not exclusively a legal term. It makes no difference to me.

That verse only implys that there were other people around if you want it to. Where are we told that Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's first children? It is possible that they had many children, and grandchildren, and even great grand children before Cain and Abel were born. I mean, cummon, Adam was 130 years old when Seth (the next child that we know the name of) was born. In 130 years a man and woman with nothing else to do can have a lot of kids. There could have been a fairly sizable population of Adam and Eve's descendants at the time, and they might not have all known one another all that well.

Notice I have said might alot. I'm just pointing out other possibilities.

A discussion of the validity of disparate interpretations is pointless. You asked for the Bible passage that I use to support my claim, I provided it.

 

[egroen]

If you think that is bad, how about Lot's own daughters getting him drunk so that he could father their children and preserve their family line?

Though incest is not specifically referenced in Jewish law until Leviticus... most of this happens prior to that.

Jewish law does not explicitly forbid cousins from marrying, but it does prohibit sexual relations with in-laws, siblings, aunts, but not uncles (Lev.18:6–18).

-Erin

 

[SoyLeche]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0488196.html

If you like, I'd be happy to amend my statement to say not exclusively a legal term. It makes no difference to me.


A discussion of the validity of disparate interpretations is pointless. You asked for the Bible passage that I use to support my claim, I provided it.

Ok, I can accept that. That still leaves the what constitutes "closely related" open to cultural interpretation though.

You did not provide a biblical passage to support your claim though. You stated:

the Bible also mentions wives and people in far-off lands

That isn't what the reference that you posted says. You can say that the Bible implys this under your interpretation, but it doesn't say it.

 

[Willamena]

Ok, I can accept that. That still leaves the what constitutes "closely related" open to cultural interpretation though.

You did not provide a biblical passage to support your claim though. You stated:
That isn't what the reference that you posted says. You can say that the Bible implys this under your interpretation, but it doesn't say it.

But it does. Cain is concerned that the people he will run into will kill him because he will have been branded a murderer. No mention at all is made of other brothers and sisters that Cain and Abel had --that is entirely your fabrication. I, on the other hand, merely pointed to what is written. The people mentioned are "other people", and they are not locals, as Cain would have to go wandering to other lands, wandering the earth, to find them. That is what it says. And on his wanderings he wound up in the land of Nod, where the first mention is made of his wife.

 

[SoyLeche]

But it does. Cain is concerned that the people he will run into will kill him because he will have been branded a murderer. No mention at all is made of other brothers and sisters that Cain and Abel had --that is entirely your fabrication. I, on the other hand, merely pointed to what is written. The people mentioned are "other people", and they are not locals, as Cain would have to go wandering to other lands, wandering the earth, to find them. That is what it says. And on his wanderings he wound up in the land of Nod, where the first mention is made of his wife.

It's no more a fabrication of mine as yours is your own fabrication. It never mentions "other" people. Why would "other" people care if he killed his brother or not. Other brothers may though....

His wife is only mentioned at all because he "knew" her and had a son. He very well may have been, and in my mind probably was, married throughout this whole story. There is so little to this story as written that any other details have to be provided by the reader.

I really don't care how people interpret this. I only asked because I don't like it when people say "The Bible says _______" and don't provide a reference for it. There is way too much that people believe the Bible says that it doesn't. That's all. :foryou:

 

[Katzpur]

I have wondered about this fo a while now. The bible tells of Cain and Able having sisters. But if Adam and Eve were the first. Did Cain and Able commit insest?

Presumably, they married their sisters. Would that qualify as incest? Perhaps, but given the fact that their parents had been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, and would eventually need a little bit of help from their children, I think it's safe to assume that Cain and Able were doing pretty much as God intended they do under the circumstances.

 

[Linus]

I have wondered about this fo a while now. The bible tells of Cain and Able having sisters. But if Adam and Eve were the first. Did Cain and Able commit insest?

First of all, Abel was killed before he reproduced. So no, he idn't commit incest, but that's beside the point...

Seth and Cain committing incest is entirely possible and probably the most probable explanation.

I have also entertained the idea of God creating other people from dust after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden. There is no biblical evidence suypporting this, but there is nothing to say otherwise (that I know of). So, perhaps God could have created other people for them to marry. I'm not saying that's a hard and fast rule by any means, but it's something I have always considered a possibility. Even if it is proven to be wrong I wouldn't really be affected.

 

[almifkhar]

you know, the bible specifically states that first came cain and then abel. there is no talk of other siblings until after abel is dead and cain is sent away.

i myself do not believe that adam and eve were all there was.
the bible specifically states that cain was the first person to build a city and a city cannot be a city with out bare min. 100 persons. there is no mention of him leaving with anyone other than himself, and he was fearful that others would find out about his deed (killing of his brother)
my personal take on it is this,
cain was cast out alone for he alone commited the crime, and he alone had to feel the consequences of his actions, and while he was wondering met up with a lady and got married and had children.
the bible further states that seth was the 3rd. born of adam and eve and after him came all the other children. so with that said, how could cain have sexual relations with a sister when he didn't have any sisters?

 

[SoyLeche]

you know, the bible specifically states that first came cain and then abel. there is no talk of other siblings until after abel is dead and cain is sent away.

i myself do not believe that adam and eve were all there was.
the bible specifically states that cain was the first person to build a city and a city cannot be a city with out bare min. 100 persons. there is no mention of him leaving with anyone other than himself, and he was fearful that others would find out about his deed (killing of his brother)
my personal take on it is this,
cain was cast out alone for he alone commited the crime, and he alone had to feel the consequences of his actions, and while he was wondering met up with a lady and got married and had children.
the bible further states that seth was the 3rd. born of adam and eve and after him came all the other children. so with that said, how could cain have sexual relations with a sister when he didn't have any sisters?

Or... Cain and Abel were the first children that had a reason to be talked about. Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. The reason that other children weren't mentioned in the story may just be because there was no reason to. They aren't an important part of the story. We are also given no timeline except that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born. For all we know the city you are talking about wasn't founded until a couple of hundred years after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, with them and their children and grandchildren multiplying like bunnies - and you are concerned that you would need at least 100 children? My grandma has that many descendants (granted, that was with spouses coming from outside the family, but she also hasn't been around 130+ years).

Also, it doesn't say that Seth was the 3rd child. Seth was the 3rd child named in the Bible. There is a difference. Notice, Seth was the one from which the lineage is taken - that's why it is written that way. That does not mean that he could not have had older brothers and sisters. And before you tell me that the named lineage would naturally go through the oldest surviving son, I dare you to find me examples of the Patriarchal birthright actually being passed from the father to the oldest son in the Bible. It doesn't happen often. (I'll get started - Abraham wasn't the oldest son, Isaac wasn't the oldest son, Jacob wasn't the oldest son, Joseph wasn't the oldest son, etc).

 

[almifkhar]

hello soy

you have a point, but...
the purpuse for the story of cain and abel is the foundation of bloodlines. legend says
that god was going to start over with man, thus came adam and his wife, satan wanted his kingdom back so decided to get into the holy bloodline that would come from adam (remember there is a great angelic battle going on. good/evil) anyway, eve was seduced (some say raped) and she became pregnant. god found out about it and had adam lay with her. she then became pregnant with abel. basically speaking she was pregnant with twins who had different daddies and this is not impossible. so she gave birth and cain was the first born. as time went on, he killed his brother abel off so that his seed would be the bloodline so to speak. god countered this by sending him on his way and from there adam had his son seth.
the bible specifically says that adam was 130 years when he had seth. after seth was born he lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. so in other words, 1.cain, 2.abel, 3. seth, 4 other sons and daughters
another way of looking at this religiously speaking is through the line of cain will come the antichrist where as the holy bloodline would come from seth, and this is where the line of abraham comes from, which will come the messiah. see good vs. evil

 

[Katzpur]

I have also entertained the idea of God creating other people from dust after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden. There is no biblical evidence suypporting this, but there is nothing to say otherwise (that I know of). So, perhaps God could have created other people for them to marry. I'm not saying that's a hard and fast rule by any means, but it's something I have always considered a possibility. Even if it is proven to be wrong I wouldn't really be affected.

Interesting. As I was typing up my response, the same thing occurred to me.

 

[SoyLeche]

hello soy

you have a point, but...
the purpuse for the story of cain and abel is the foundation of bloodlines. legend says
that god was going to start over with man, thus came adam and his wife, satan wanted his kingdom back so decided to get into the holy bloodline that would come from adam (remember there is a great angelic battle going on. good/evil) anyway, eve was seduced (some say raped) and she became pregnant. god found out about it and had adam lay with her. she then became pregnant with abel. basically speaking she was pregnant with twins who had different daddies and this is not impossible. so she gave birth and cain was the first born. as time went on, he killed his brother abel off so that his seed would be the bloodline so to speak. god countered this by sending him on his way and from there adam had his son seth.
the bible specifically says that adam was 130 years when he had seth. after seth was born he lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. so in other words, 1.cain, 2.abel, 3. seth, 4 other sons and daughters
another way of looking at this religiously speaking is through the line of cain will come the antichrist where as the holy bloodline would come from seth, and this is where the line of abraham comes from, which will come the messiah. see good vs. evil

That's fine if you want to believe that, but you are obviously reading from a different book than I am I have a hard time believing that Adam and Eve had only 3 children in 130 years, but that's just me.

Actually, while we're here, a book that I accept as scripture says quite clearly that Adam and Eve had children before Cain and Abel: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/5

So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm perfectly okay with that.