By self reasoning alone

[osgart]

What can a person be expected to know?

And what should every person be responsible for knowing?

Is there knowledge to acquire by reasoning in the solitude of one's own mind?

 

[PruePhillip]

This is what the ancient Greeks thought.
It has its limits but certainly - the Greeks came up with atomic theory!!!

 

[Windwalker]

What can a person be expected to know?

The limits of reason.

And what should every person be responsible for knowing?

The limits of reason.

Is there knowledge to acquire by reasoning in the solitude of one's own mind?

Yes. To come to realize the limits of reason.

 

[osgart]

Give me a good dictionary, and a well thought out language and i probably could go very far reasoning with just that.

No man is an island, and i imagine the very first reasoners got very far with much effort and experience.

Take the word 'if' , someone had to birth the word, and relay its meaning. If i dont eat i will die they might have said. Or if you dont watch yourself, you will end up in great danger.

The journey of language development would probably be the most interesting of stories.

I imagine the first things the first reasoners learned is limits and limitations.

 

[Windwalker]

I imagine the first things the first reasoners learned is limits and limitations.

I think there are still quite a few who think reason will tell us the answers to everything. If we just examine the natural world through science and reason enough, we'll have the keys to all knowledge. Those who are the smartest amongst them, know better.

 

[osgart]

I think there are still quite a few who think reason will tell us the answers to everything. If we just examine the natural world through science and reason enough, we'll have the keys to all knowledge. Those who are the smartest amongst them, know better.

Thats pretty high minded to think we will know all. We will get further and further though. New semantics , new conceptions perhaps will take us further.

I dont see any basis for thinking that all will be known. There is plenty of dead ends to be had. Spinning the wheels in ruts before ever finding better ways.

I see things like string theory, super symmetry, many worlds interpretation of QM and it all sounds too cute, or too far fetched. Its almost religious.

Consciousness is also a vague term and not representative of the whole experience. Stubborn insistence on knowing it all, stubborn insistence that their philosophies are the key to unlocking it all.

 

[Earthling]

What can a person be expected to know?

And what should every person be responsible for knowing?

Is there knowledge to acquire by reasoning in the solitude of one's own mind?

I don't know . . .

 

[Spirit of Light]

example. the reason for suffering is craving, craving for what we do not have or craving for what we did have but no longer have. this make us suffer.

 

[stvdv]

Is there knowledge to acquire by reasoning in the solitude of one's own mind?

Yes, when in the "solitude of one's own mind" the mind becomes silent. But if mind is too silent there is nothing to acquire anymore

 

[shunyadragon]

This is what the ancient Greeks thought.
It has its limits but certainly - the Greeks came up with atomic theory!!!

I believe it is a stretch to say Greeks came up with atomic theory. The Greek philosophers were the first to propose the existence of the atom.

I believe it is an illusion that self reasoning is in reality what people claim, because we are result of influences and relationships of the world around us.

 

[osgart]

I believe it is a stretch to say Greeks came up with atomic theory. The Greek philosophers were the first to propose the existence of the atom.

I believe it is an illusion that self reasoning is in reality what people claim, because we are result of influences and relationships of the world around us.

Self reasoning alone is perhaps starting from scratch, and not taking advantage of the resources of knowledge available. So knowledge is like food for the mind, and enables reason.

I think self reasoning alone is reinventing everything for yourself when so much has already been done by other people.

But still having an independent mind can lead one away from influences that are less than desireable.

 

[shunyadragon]

Self reasoning alone is perhaps starting from scratch, and not taking advantage of the resources of knowledge available. So knowledge is like food for the mind, and enables reason.

I think self reasoning alone is reinventing everything for yourself when so much has already been done by other people.

But still having an independent mind can lead one away from influences that are less than desireable.

Yes, reasoning can possibly sort influences to 'lead on away' from less desirable influences, but nonetheless on is sorting based on outside and inside influences including one's culture. The problem with reasoning is that it can go many ways, both good and bad.

I believe the concept of "No man is an island" clearly negates this view. We can never start from scratch. Our evolved nature over millions of years exists as foundation, and the evolved culture we live in cannot be so easily evaded,.

 

[ChristineM]

Self reasoning? You can reason, my stomach is growling therefore i reason i should eat. My bladder is full, i reason i need to visit the toilet etc.

Anything more then personal need requires external information so self reason is not actually self.

 

[wellwisher]

Another way to look at self reasoning is, nature builds upon itself and often recycles various schema at various levels of complexity. The electron moves around the atomic nucleus, the planets move about the sun, while the sun moves around the center of the galaxy; recycled schema.

That being said, the human brain is built upon basic biology, which is built upon chemistry which is built upon physics. The personality firmware, which underlies human nature and consciousness build upon this foundation that is set in the brain. The building from basics to complexity builds a certain way based on free energy.

In some respects we get sort of a holographic affect. If we take a holographic slide and hold it to the light, we can see a 3-D object. If we take a hole punch and punch put a small chad from anywhere on the slide, the entire holographic image is contained within the small punch out. The same interference patterns, for the entire hologram, appear at all scales and positions, from large to small.

If you self observe, the punch out called the personality firmware, has an image of a larger holographic schema present in this punch out. This is different from reasoning based on only data from the outer world. Instead it begins by observing the image of the inner world of firmware, and then you see if external data can overlap this image. If it is works out, you have a holographic theory.

 

[PruePhillip]

I believe it is a stretch to say Greeks came up with atomic theory. The Greek philosophers were the first to propose the existence of the atom.

I believe it is an illusion that self reasoning is in reality what people claim, because we are result of influences and relationships of the world around us.

I have forgotten much of my early lessons on Democritus.
But he posited the atom, the vacuum atoms move in, the idea
there's cause and effect, that nature is physical and rational,
the primacy of mathematics, atoms can stick together and
grow bigger, the notion of emergent behavior from complex
systems and so on.
IMO scientists moved too early to call the system of protons,
neutrons and electrons an atom - Democritus wouldn't have
define THIS as his atom. Protons are made of quarks, and
maybe quarks are the "atom" Democritus was thinking of -
indivisible, indestructible and endlessly moving particles.

 

[osgart]

Yes, reasoning can possibly sort influences to 'lead on away' from less desirable influences, but nonetheless on is sorting based on outside and inside influences including one's culture. The problem with reasoning is that it can go many ways, both good and bad.

I believe the concept of "No man is an island" clearly negates this view. We can never start from scratch. Our evolved nature over millions of years exists as foundation, and the evolved culture we live in cannot be so easily evaded,.

I wasnt intending to evade the culture. I wouldnt call self reasoning evasion. People ought be stronger with themselves, and use their minds more independently, this is America, i dont live in Russia.

 

[shunyadragon]

I wasnt intending to evade the culture. I wouldnt call self reasoning evasion. People ought be stronger with themselves, and use their minds more independently, this is America, i don't live in Russia.

I accept that our reasoning should be more independent, detached from preconceived beliefs and claimed truths, and 'open' to alternatives.

At present most human reasoning is more circular emphasizing self-justification, sense of belonging and attachment to a sense of community within the context of cultures an inherited beliefs.

Neither of us live in Russia, but like all humans we remain a product of our heritage in many forms, and I believe regardless we can never totally separate ourselves from this heritage.

 

[PureX]

What can a person be expected to know?

And what should every person be responsible for knowing?

Is there knowledge to acquire by reasoning in the solitude of one's own mind?

We can 'know' lots of things, mostly via our own reason and experience, and by the shared reason and experience of others. What we should not be, however, is certain of that knowledge. Once we adopt the position of certainty, we have opened the door to dishonesty, and ultimately to insanity. Because our not being omniscient means that we don't ever get to be certain of anything.

 

[osgart]

I accept that our reasoning should be more independent, detached from preconceived beliefs and claimed truths, and 'open' to alternatives.

At present most human reasoning is more circular emphasizing self-justification, sense of belonging and attachment to a sense of community within the context of cultures an inherited beliefs.

Neither of us live in Russia, but like all humans we remain a product of our heritage in many forms, and I believe regardless we can never totally separate ourselves from this heritage.

I like what Viktor Frankl says and perhaps thats a heritage in itself.
Viktor E. Frankl Quotes (Author of Man's Search for Meaning)

And i will say myself that some are resigned to things that shackle their inner freedom. But to resign ones self to those chains is a poor choice. Some people are accustomed to accepting less from themselves and are never truly free inside. They let their circumstances rule them from the inside out.

 

[Audie]

I think there are still quite a few who think reason will tell us the answers to everything. If we just examine the natural world through science and reason enough, we'll have the keys to all knowledge. Those who are the smartest amongst them, know better.

Ah, another bent on savaging the grim chimera
of "scientism".