But you said you were okay with abortion...

[Koldo]

Imagine the following scenario:

'Harry is dating Ana. They thoroughly spoke about how an unplanned pregnancy would be dealt it, and it was agreed that abortion would be an acceptable method. Months later, Ana got pregnant. And she decided she wouldn't go through the abortion anymore. Ana didn't try to deceive Harry when she agreed with abortion back then; she simply had a change of mind after she got pregnant.'

Both sides ( Harry and Ana ) agree to this version of the story.

How should the judiciary system ( laws ) deal with this situation?
Should Ana be forced to undergo an abortion ( of her fetus ), even though her health is being ( more or less ) compromised by this invasive procedure ?
Should Harry be forced to financially support the newborn, even though Ana had previously agreed to abort the fetus in cases of unplanned pregnancy ?
Should Harry be able to renounce his rights to the child to avoid financially supporting it?
How should this issue be settled?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I like choice 3. Both get what they want within their rights.

 

[Kerr]

Imagine the following scenario:

'Harry is dating Ana. They thoroughly spoke about how an unplanned pregnancy would be dealt it, and it was agreed that abortion would be an acceptable method. Months later, Ana got pregnant. And she decided she wouldn't go through the abortion anymore. Ana didn't try to deceive Harry when she agreed with abortion back then; she simply had a change of mind after she got pregnant.'

Both sides ( Harry and Ana ) agree to this version of the story.

How should the judiciary system ( laws ) deal with this situation?
Should Ana be forced to undergo an abortion ( of her fetus ), even though her health is being ( more or less ) compromised by this invasive procedure ?
Should Harry be forced to financially support the newborn, even though Ana had previously agreed to abort the fetus in cases of unplanned pregnancy ?
Should Harry be able to renounce his rights to the child to avoid financially supporting it?
How should this issue be settled?

2 or 3. 1 is not an acceptable solution as far as I am concerned (no one should be forced to abort their baby).

EDIT:

Think about it I am leaning towards 2. Even if he didnt agree, I think its irresponsible to just leave it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Option 2. The decision should be governed by the best interests of the child. Even though they didn't want the child, the child exists and has to be taken care of somehow.

Edit: if both parents agree and the mother has the resources to support the child on her own, I could go with option 3.

 

[beenie]

Option 2. The decision should be governed by the best interests of the child. Even though they didn't want the child, the child exists and has to be taken care of somehow.

Edit: if both parents agree and the mother has the resources to support the child on her own, I could go with option 3.

Agreed.

Forcing an abortion is just as bad as forcing a woman to addy a baby to term.

 

[lunakilo]

Imagine the following scenario:

'Harry is dating Ana. They thoroughly spoke about how an unplanned pregnancy would be dealt it, and it was agreed that abortion would be an acceptable method. Months later, Ana got pregnant. And she decided she wouldn't go through the abortion anymore. Ana didn't try to deceive Harry when she agreed with abortion back then; she simply had a change of mind after she got pregnant.'

Both sides ( Harry and Ana ) agree to this version of the story.

How should the judiciary system ( laws ) deal with this situation?
Should Ana be forced to undergo an abortion ( of her fetus ), even though her health is being ( more or less ) compromised by this invasive procedure ?
Should Harry be forced to financially support the newborn, even though Ana had previously agreed to abort the fetus in cases of unplanned pregnancy ?
Should Harry be able to renounce his rights to the child to avoid financially supporting it?
How should this issue be settled?

1) Harry should write moron on his forehead. If Harry didn't want Ana to get pregnant, he could have made sure she didn't
2) Harry should tell Ana that he doesn't want to financially support this child, and that he thinks Ana should agree to not receive any money from Harry since having this child is her idea and not something they agreed on. He can only hope she agrees if not he has to pay up (that moron).

All that "renouncing his rights" is silly in my opinion, he should be old enough to know that if you have sex you risk making babies.

Only reason I can come up with were Harry can not be considered responsible for the child is if Ana raped him. In that case he is off the hook

(I guess that was me arguing for number 2 "Should Harry be forced to financially support the newborn, even though Ana had previously agreed to abort the fetus in cases of unplanned pregnancy ?")

 

[lunakilo]

I like choice 3. Both get what they want within their rights.

Though I agree that is what makes sense in this case since they both agree, I don't think it would make sense legally.

What if Harry and Ana didn't fully agree on what they decided before Ana became pregnant.
You could easily end up in situations where Harry gets Ana pregnant and just runs off and leaves Ana to support the baby on her own.

If they both agree that Ana changed her mind, then they should be able to work something out between them. It doesn't sound right to me that Harry should help Ana financially, but I would let Harry and Ana work it out, not involve the law.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Do verbal agreements hold up in court?

I'd say if both parties are that committed to the stance on abortion, they should both hire attorneys ahead of time and write up a binding agreement that will hold up in a district court to where #3 is a viable option.

Until then, changing the mind of keeping the baby after delivery isn't just in the realm of woman. A man can change his mind too after the baby is born and decide to be a father.

 

[Koldo]

Do verbal agreements hold up in court?

Should this verbal agreement hold up in court when both sides agree to this version of the story?

I'd say if both parties are that committed to the stance on abortion, they should both hire attorneys ahead of time and write up a binding agreement that will hold up in a district court to where #3 is a viable option.

Out of curiosity, would this specific written agreement, likely be considered valid on a court of USA?

 

[Koldo]

What if Harry and Ana didn't fully agree on what they decided before Ana became pregnant.
You could easily end up in situations where Harry gets Ana pregnant and just runs off and leaves Ana to support the baby on her own.

For all intents and purposes, Harry and Ana fully agreed on the abortion before Ana became pregnant.

Feel free to explore this other possibility though.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Should this verbal agreement hold up in court when both sides agree to this version of the story?

I guess as much as any verbal agreement, but I am not an attorney. Are you?

Out of curiosity, would this specific written agreement, likely be considered valid on a court of USA?

My best guess is yes, if the judge considers the agreement in accordance to local/state/federal law.

 

[Koldo]

1) Harry should write moron on his forehead. If Harry didn't want Ana to get pregnant, he could have made sure she didn't

How exactly?

All that "renouncing his rights" is silly in my opinion, he should be old enough to know that if you have sex you risk making babies.

He was aware of that. But Ana told him she wouldn't mind the abortion so he was at ease with this.

 

[Koldo]

I guess as much as any verbal agreement, but I am not an attorney. Are you?

No, i am not. That question doesn't require you to be one though.
It is whether it should be one way or another.
Not whether it is.

My best guess is yes, if the judge considers the agreement in accordance to local/state/federal law.

Well, certainly. However, at least on Brazil, some/several laws tend to leave some room for interpretation. It would come as no surprise to me if nearly every judge were to consider this sort of agreement as being illegal around here.
There seems to be a major tendency to aid the child at all costs.

EDIT: Actually, abortion is an illegal practice around here so it is redundant...

 

[lunakilo]

How exactly?

Magic marker

He was aware of that. But Ana told him she wouldn't mind the abortion so he was at ease with this.

And he trusted that she would not change her mind (that moron ).
Now she has changed her mind and the fact that he didn't plan this doesn't make him any less the father.

It is not MORALLY RIGHT for Ana to require Harry to support the child, but it is however LEGALLY RIGHT.
Harry also knew that (or should have known that, that moron) before he managed to make Ana pregnant, so if Ana requires that Harry help support the child, he has to (that moron)

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Should Ana be forced to undergo an abortion ( of her fetus ), even though her health is being ( more or less ) compromised by this invasive procedure ?

No. Period.

Should Harry be forced to financially support the newborn, even though Ana had previously agreed to abort the fetus in cases of unplanned pregnancy ?

No. Harry made his stance perfectly clear long before the pregnancy, he doesn't want a child and if one is accidentally conceived he would prefer to abort it than support it. Ana agreed to this verbal contract. If she decides to renegotiate the contract, Harry should not be forced into becoming a father. However, to wash his hands of the child he must be willing to relinquish all rights to fatherhood forever.

Should Harry be able to renounce his rights to the child to avoid financially supporting it?

Yes. If Ana decides to keep the child after agreeing that they wouldn't, the financial burden falls on her. However, as mentioned above, if Harry does this he can't change his mind in the future and demand father's rights.

How should this issue be settled?

With discussion between the two parents if at all possible.

 

[4consideration]

I would need even more clarification on one point.

If it is actually "abortion would be an acceptable method" of dealing with an unplanned pregnancy, I can see room for it being considered that what was agreed to was that abortion was an acceptable option to consider -- and not a definitely planned course of action. Abortion may not be interpretted as the "only" option agreed upon -- but more of like, "yeah, we'll wait and see how we feel about it if it happens, but would definitely consider abortion to be at the top of the list of options."

In that situation, the responsibility for the child IMO would be 50/50.

Now if it was definitely agreed that any unplanned pregnancy would be handled through abortion, and ONLY abortion, I would personally consider that to be a verbal contract. In that situation, I would choose #3.

However, I do not think it is reasonable to expect that the government would recognize a verbal contract as valid, if the child would then be eligible for public assistance as a result of the father giving up his "rights and duties."

As far as the mother is concerned, I believe that she is fully within her right to change her mind, even with the presence of a verbal contract that any unplanned pregnacy would definitely be terminated -- and along with exercising that right, she would be assuming full responsibility for the child. I believe Ana should assume this duty without having the legal system have to force it. But if she did not agree to that and the judicial system had to make that determination, if I were the one to have to judge this situation (glad I'm not) I would have to allow #3.

(I also think that mentally and emotionally Ana and the baby would be better off than to have to deal with a man who rightfully believed he had something forced upon him in the presence of a conscious agreement to an opposite -- and legal --course of action.)

This is merely an opinion about a legal duty, which is the way it was presented in the OP. IMO the father still has the moral duty to provide for his child, because his child exists and needs to be cared for, regardless of any pre-existing agreements to terminate any unplanned pregnancy.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No, i am not. That question doesn't require you to be one though.
It is whether it should be one way or another.
Not whether it is.

My opinion is this: Verbal agreements are bunk. People can and do change their minds often as we many times cannot predict circumstances changing nor perspectives and personal ethics changing. If terminating a pregnancy is that important for both parties in the case of an accidental pregnancy, then I believe it's just as important to draw up plan B if terminating the pregnancy is no longer an option for the woman and the parties must re-negotiate.

It would be more ethically wrong IMO to force a woman to continue the pregnancy than it is to discuss further options regarding the responsibilities of the child's welfare.

Well, certainly. However, at least on Brazil, some/several laws tend to leave some room for interpretation. It would come as no surprise to me if nearly every judge were to consider this sort of agreement as being illegal around here.
There seems to be a major tendency to aid the child at all costs.

EDIT: Actually, abortion is an illegal practice around here so it is redundant...

I see nothing wrong with discussing how to best aid the child after being born. If they must put the baby up for adoption, if the father agrees to child support, if the father relinquishes his rights and duties of fatherhood and hands them over to another able bodied person.

The argument of "well, I didn't want the child in the first place, so YOU deal with it....I'm outta here...." is immature. I suggest if the father wants to relinquish his obligations and child support, the most mature thing to do is to help the mother find a suitable replacement support system with his bowing out. That is, if she alone does not have the resources independently to provide for the welfare of the child.

 

[Koldo]

Magic marker

WHAT?! A magic marker that prevents pregnancy?
That's almost as good as chantilly that prevents pregnancy.
Wait, that is actually a very good idea. I could make tons of money with that.
*runs to lab*

And he trusted that she would not change her mind (that moron ).
Now she has changed her mind and the fact that he didn't plan this doesn't make him any less the father.

Is he a moron for trusting her?

It is not MORALLY RIGHT for Ana to require Harry to support the child, but it is however LEGALLY RIGHT.
Harry also knew that (or should have known that, that moron) before he managed to make Ana pregnant, so if Ana requires that Harry help support the child, he has to (that moron)

Should it be legally right for her to require Harry to support the child?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

My husband and I agreed that once we were done having children, he'd get a vasectomy.

He changed his mind and has decided not to go through the procedure.

Oh well. Time to think of other options since he has the right to decide what to do with his body.

That was years ago. I haven't thought about how he lied to me, or betrayed my trust, or how it's his fault and I have to shoulder some burden because he was autonomous in his decision not to be snipped. The reason is that I DON'T think that about him. It's his choice what happens with his body, and I respect that first and foremost.

.

.

.

I look forward to the day when women can decide what happens with their bodies without people whining and shouting about how she shouldn't be able to for whatever reason.

 

[NIX]

I personally see nothing wrong with drawing up legal agreements ahead of time.

Beyond that it's he said, she said. After the fact either one can say anything.