Buddhists: how do you view Ramayana and Mahabharata?

[ronki23]

I'm particularly interested in how you view the Bhagavad Geeta as the fundamental message is to do your dharma (duty)

 

[crossfire]

My personal view of the Bhagavad Geeta is that its aim is to form a pan-Hindu Mara. (Your mileage may vary.) Dharma in Buddhism is different than dharma in Hinduism. In Buddhism, you withdraw from societal norms/nomos (maras) and examine your own mind, rather than do what society dictates. Dharmas are considered aspects of reality, rather than duty.

 

[crossfire]

In the way Joseph Campbell defines it, the Geeta is Right-hand Path, whereas Buddhism is Left-hand Path: Buddha left his palace, family, and princely duties to become a wandering ascetic.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm particularly interested in how you view the Bhagavad Geeta as the fundamental message is to do your dharma (duty)

The title of you topic is different from your first post. In the title, you are asking about Ramayana and Mahabharata, in your post you are talking about BhagawadGita.
As a non-Buddhist disciple of Buddha, just like me, I think Buddhists will approve part of BhagawadGita and differ where Krishna declares himself to be the Supreme entity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In Buddhism, you withdraw from societal norms/nomos (maras) and examine your own mind, rather than do what society dictates. Dharmas are considered aspects of reality, rather than duty.

Is that for all Buddhists or only for the monks? In Hinduism also, dharma is only for the perceived world (Vyavaharika). For reality (Paramarthika), there is no dharma. Sankara said:

"na me dvesha ragau na me lobha mohau, na me vai mado naiva matsarya bhavah;
na dharmo na chartho na kamo na mokshaha, chidananda rupah shivo'ham shivo'ham."

There is no like or dislike in me, no greed or delusion, I know not pride or jealousy;
I have no duty, no desire for wealth, lust or liberation, I am the form of the eternal and auspicious.
Nirvana Shatakam - Shivoham Shivoham Lyrics and Meaning

 

[crossfire]

Is that for all Buddhists or only for the monks?

The first part of Buddhist practice for both monks/nuns and laypersons is to withdraw from society and turn inward in meditation.

In Hinduism also, dharma is only for the perceived world (Vyavaharika). For reality (Paramarthika), there is no dharma. Sankara said:

"na me dvesha ragau na me lobha mohau, na me vai mado naiva matsarya bhavah;
na dharmo na chartho na kamo na mokshaha, chidananda rupah shivo'ham shivo'ham."

There is no like or dislike in me, no greed or delusion, I know not pride or jealousy;
I have no duty, no desire for wealth, lust or liberation, I am the form of the eternal and auspicious.
Nirvana Shatakam - Shivoham Shivoham Lyrics and Meaning

The Pali Kanha is the same as the Sanskrit Krishna, no? (a mara)

 

[Aupmanyav]

In the way Joseph Campbell defines it, the Geeta is Right-hand Path, whereas Buddhism is Left-hand Path: Buddha left his palace, family, and princely duties to become a wandering ascetic.

Yeah, as a Hindu householder, I agree that neither Buddha nor Sankara fulfilled their social duties (dharma).

The Pali Kanha is the same as the Sanskrit Krishna, no?

Yeah, I think that is correct.

 

[ronki23]

My personal view of the Bhagavad Geeta is that its aim is to form a pan-Hindu Mara. (Your mileage may vary.) Dharma in Buddhism is different than dharma in Hinduism. In Buddhism, you withdraw from societal norms/nomos (maras) and examine your own mind, rather than do what society dictates. Dharmas are considered aspects of reality, rather than duty.

Dhritarastra, Gandhari, Vidura and Kunti withdrew from life and went to live in the forest after the Pandavas regained their Kingdom

 

[Aupmanyav]

Dhritarastra, Gandhari, Vidura and Kunti withdrew from life and went to live in the forest after the Pandavas regained their Kingdom

They had completed their worldly duties and then to retire from the world was considered the right thing to do rather than cling to the world.

 

[ajay0]

There are Buddhist householder-saints like Sayagyi U Ba Khin , S.N.Goenka, Mya Thwin, Daisaku Ikeda , Metta Zetty, Sharon Salzberg and so on who were diligent in both their material and spiritual duties.

Sayagyi U Ba Khin was the first Accountant General of Burma.

King Jigme Singye Wangchuck of Bhutan was a progressive Buddhist king and administrator who emphasized gross national happiness to be more important than gross domestic product. The concept implies that sustainable development should take a holistic approach towards notions of progress and give equal importance to non-economic aspects of well-being.

Bhutan has continually been ranked as the happiest country in all of Asia, and the eighth Happiest Country in the world according to Business Week. In 2007, Bhutan had the second fastest growing GDP in the world, at the same time as maintaining their environment and cultural identity.

Bhutan is also the world's first and only carbon negative country, meaning the greenhouse pollution it generates is offset-ted by its extensive forests (conserved by its constitution and laws), but also in the negative due to the generation and export of renewable hydroelectricity to other countries.

 

[crossfire]

The title of you topic is different from your first post. In the title, you are asking about Ramayana and Mahabharata, in your post you are talking about BhagawadGita.
As a non-Buddhist disciple of Buddha, just like me, I think Buddhists will approve part of BhagawadGita and differ where Krishna declares himself to be the Supreme entity.

Well yes, as resisting Mara is a major tenet of Buddhism.
(lol, can't spell tenet!)

 

[ajay0]

Dhritarastra, Gandhari, Vidura and Kunti withdrew from life and went to live in the forest after the Pandavas regained their Kingdom

Janaka, before he became a king and administrator, performed austerities in his youth in solitude. This enabled him to be in present moment awareness and mindfulness at all times even as a king in the midst of his worldly duties and regal luxuries.

This enabled him to reach enlightenment later on and the Gita considers him to be a karma yogi who attained enlightenment through the path of action.

Dhritarashtra and Gandhari, whom you mentioned, was not known for their righteous conduct due to their inordinate attachment to their wicked son Duryodhana and they constantly gave in to his whims and fancies, which resulted in the war later on for the kingdom. Their critical lapses in their duties as king and queen can be attributed to their lack of wisdom and austerities in youth.

Crossfire makes a noteworthy point when she states thus, " In Buddhism, you withdraw from societal norms/nomos (maras) and examine your own mind, rather than do what society dictates. "

Imho, this enables one to go beyond social conditioning and become self-aware. Such a one would then perform their duties mindfully rather than through unconscious habit.

 

[crossfire]

Janaka, before he became a king and administrator, performed austerities in his youth in solitude. This enabled him to be in present moment awareness and mindfulness at all times even as a king in the midst of his worldly duties and regal luxuries.

This enabled him to reach enlightenment later on and the Gita considers him to be a karma yogi who attained enlightenment through the path of action.

Dhritarashtra and Gandhari, whom you mentioned, was not known for their righteous conduct due to their inordinate attachment to their wicked son Duryodhana and they constantly gave in to his whims and fancies, which resulted in the war later on for the kingdom. Their critical lapses in their duties as king and queen can be attributed to their lack of wisdom and austerities in youth.

Crossfire makes a noteworthy point when she states thus, " In Buddhism, you withdraw from societal norms/nomos (maras) and examine your own mind, rather than do what society dictates. "

Imho, this enables one to go beyond social conditioning and become self-aware. Such a one would then perform their duties mindfully rather than through unconscious habit.

Well yes, that is the point of Buddhism: to become awakened and unafraid of not following unskillful cultural dictates.

 

[ronki23]

Janaka, before he became a king and administrator, performed austerities in his youth in solitude. This enabled him to be in present moment awareness and mindfulness at all times even as a king in the midst of his worldly duties and regal luxuries.

This enabled him to reach enlightenment later on and the Gita considers him to be a karma yogi who attained enlightenment through the path of action.

Dhritarashtra and Gandhari, whom you mentioned, was not known for their righteous conduct due to their inordinate attachment to their wicked son Duryodhana and they constantly gave in to his whims and fancies, which resulted in the war later on for the kingdom. Their critical lapses in their duties as king and queen can be attributed to their lack of wisdom and austerities in youth.

Crossfire makes a noteworthy point when she states thus, " In Buddhism, you withdraw from societal norms/nomos (maras) and examine your own mind, rather than do what society dictates. "

Imho, this enables one to go beyond social conditioning and become self-aware. Such a one would then perform their duties mindfully rather than through unconscious habit.

My personal view of the Bhagavad Geeta is that its aim is to form a pan-Hindu Mara. (Your mileage may vary.) Dharma in Buddhism is different than dharma in Hinduism. In Buddhism, you withdraw from societal norms/nomos (maras) and examine your own mind, rather than do what society dictates. Dharmas are considered aspects of reality, rather than duty.

How is what Dhritarastra, Gandhari, Vidura and Kunti different to what Buddha did in his life ? If I'm not mistaken didn't Buddha return to his Kingdom?

 

[crossfire]

How is what Dhritarastra, Gandhari, Vidura and Kunti different to what Buddha did in his life ? If I'm not mistaken didn't Buddha return to his Kingdom?

Buddha returned to visit, not to take up his princely station.

 

[ronki23]

Buddha returned to visit, not to take up his princely station.

You said Buddhists should ideally retire from society; that's what Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Vidura and Kunti did.

Even the Pandavs withdrew from society after Krishna died @ajay0

 

[crossfire]

You said Buddhists should ideally retire from society; that's what Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Vidura and Kunti did.

Even the Pandavs withdrew from society after Krishna died @ajay0

The ideal is to maintain your own mind instead of having your mind overcome by the cultural norms/nomos/maras.

Here is what a nomos is from the sociological standpoint:
Nomos (sociology) - Wikipedia

snippet:

To be most effective, the nomos must be taken for granted. The structure of the world created by human and social activity is treated not as contingent, but as self-evident:[8]: 24–5 

Whenever the socially established nomos attains the quality of being taken for granted, there occurs a merging of its meanings with what are considered to be the fundamental meanings inherent in the universe.
​

Nomos needs to reside mostly just outside of the conscious mind and be taken for granted in order for it to be most effective. This quality makes it highly resistant to examination and critique--to the point where people will do irrational and immoral things in order to protect and uphold the nomos out of an unconscious terror of chaos being held back by the nomos. They will defend and enforce the morally indefensible. This specific aspect of behavior associated with the nomos is known as Mara.

Being that the nomos is most effective when it resides in the unconscious mind and is resistant to being brought into consciousness, one side effect is that it also serves as a barrier towards an individual examining the chaos within their own unconscious mind. The terror of chaos reigning with the breakdown of society is also associated with the terror of the chaos within one's own unconscious mind. Hence, the individual identifies with and clings to what Joseph Campbell described as the "Persona System" in the video clip I posted upthread, instead of engaging in the Hero's Journey of going within your own unconscious mind and resolving your own personal hang ups.

It sounds like dharma as duty is specifically aimed towards propagating and maintaining the nomos/mara, which also makes the individual resistant to examining their own psychological chaos.

here is a blurb about nomos from a mythological standpoint:
Nomos (mythology) - Wikipedia

snippet:

Nomos was described as the ruler of gods and men[2]:

The holy king of Gods and men I call, celestial Law [Nomos], the righteous seal of all;
The seal which stamps whate'er the earth contains, Nature's firm basis, and the liquid plains:
Stable, and starry, of harmonious frame, preserving laws eternally the same:
Thy all-composing pow'r in heaven appears, connects its frame, and props the starry spheres;
And shakes weak Envy with tremendous sound, toss'd by thy arm in giddy whirls around.
'Tis thine, the life of mortals to defend, and crown existence with a blessed end;
For thy command and alone, of all that lives order and rule to ev'ry dwelling gives:
Ever observant of the upright mind, and of just actions the companion kind;
Foe to the lawless, with avenging ire, their steps involving in destruction dire.
Come, bless, abundant pow'r, whom all revere, by all desir'd, with favr'ing mind draw near;
Give me thro' life, on thee to fix my fight, and ne'er forsake the equal paths of right.​

Sound familiar?

It can require quite a bit of self-observation and withdrawal from the nomos in order to be able to examine the nomos objectively and identify the mara aspect when it manifests. Some people need to completely withdraw from society in order to do this. Others can create their own "sacred" space where they can withdraw from society/the nomos in order to do the meditation and contemplation in order to identify suffering, the causes of suffering, and the path leading towards the end of suffering. Either way, the unconscious propagation of "societal duty" as a means by which to build a shield to hold back the terror of chaos can be counterproductive to the self-examination required for the "Hero's Journey."