Buddhism Debate

[The Sum of Awe]

I'm interested in Buddha's wise intake on how to avoid suffering and what causes it, and I can in general agree that attachment causes suffering, or can, but I don't agree that selfishness and overindulging causes suffering.

You can avoid attachment while being overindulgent.


Thoughts?

 

[Me Myself]

I'm interested in Buddha's wise intake on how to avoid suffering and what causes it, and I can in general agree that attachment causes suffering, or can, but I don't agree that selfishness and overindulging causes suffering.

You can avoid attachment while being overindulgent.


Thoughts?

Its a lot harder.

I haven´t seen it that much.


I believe it is theoretically posible but to say that you can would be like you indulge in everything you want but you don´t feel bad when for some reason all the indulgences you are used to cannot be met.

Then suffering comes back in. To indulge in many things generaly means that you will end up attached to them and suffer when you don´t have them.

The idea is not to indulge too much nor to make yourself delibnerately suffer for lack. to find a medium path. That is the general teaching, and it honestly feels really lucid and accurate. Least that´s my thought

 

[nnmartin]

I also think overindulging seems to cause stress when you can't have your indulgence. This must surely be a form of obsession.

Depends to an extent on what you call overindulgence though - care to give any examples?

 

[DreadFish]

I'm interested in Buddha's wise intake on how to avoid suffering and what causes it, and I can in general agree that attachment causes suffering, or can, but I don't agree that selfishness and overindulging causes suffering.

You can avoid attachment while being overindulgent.


Thoughts?

Selfishness causes suffering because it is the idea of a separate self that starts the whole problem. It follows that to indulge in something, one has the notion that it is something that they do not already have, something separate from themselves.

 

[Buttons*]

Wouldn't exactly be a "middle path" if it thought overindulgence were not part of the scheme.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I'm interested in Buddha's wise intake on how to avoid suffering and what causes it, and I can in general agree that attachment causes suffering, or can, but I don't agree that selfishness and overindulging causes suffering.

You can avoid attachment while being overindulgent.


Thoughts?

Consider another factor: interdependence. You live on a planet with limited resources. Overindulgence leads others to suffer which will in time lead you to suffer.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I also think overindulging seems to cause stress when you can't have your indulgence. This must surely be a form of obsession.

Depends to an extent on what you call overindulgence though - care to give any examples?

Not if you are willing to let things go, but you can do that while overindulging.

Overindulgence is simply getting what you want when you want it all of the time.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Consider another factor: interdependence. You live on a planet with limited resources. Overindulgence leads others to suffer which will in time lead you to suffer.

How does it make others suffer? And how do others suffering make us suffer?

 

[Muffled]

Its a lot harder.

I haven´t seen it that much.


I believe it is theoretically posible but to say that you can would be like you indulge in everything you want but you don´t feel bad when for some reason all the indulgences you are used to cannot be met.

Then suffering comes back in. To indulge in many things generaly means that you will end up attached to them and suffer when you don´t have them.

The idea is not to indulge too much nor to make yourself delibnerately suffer for lack. to find a medium path. That is the general teaching, and it honestly feels really lucid and accurate. Least that´s my thought

I would rather suffer. The alternative feels like a loss of life to me akin to the person who is afraid of leaving the house for fear of losing his/her life. I am going to live in a tent for fear that I will suffer when I lose my house? Quite frankly I prefer to live in a house and take my chances on suffering loss.

It is the age old saying: "It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all."

 

[Muffled]

Consider another factor: interdependence. You live on a planet with limited resources. Overindulgence leads others to suffer which will in time lead you to suffer.

I have seen Quaker arguments to that effect. I am not convinced that it is true. It smacks of the communist view of leveling that requires everyone to be poor. And that is exactly where it led: to an impoverished nation. If a man wishes to overindulge, he must overproduce and that is good for everyone because he will have to trade some away.

 

[Engyo]

Overindulgence is simply getting what you want when you want it all of the time.

I don't think I can subscribe to this definition. One can overindulge in one area while depriving onesself in another.

 

[Nooj]

Overindulgence is simply getting what you want when you want it all of the time.

I don't think many people have experienced overindulgence then.

 

[Engyo]

I'm interested in Buddha's wise intake on how to avoid suffering and what causes it, and I can in general agree that attachment causes suffering, or can, but I don't agree that selfishness and overindulging causes suffering.

You can avoid attachment while being overindulgent.


Thoughts?

I think that if you examine what the buddha taught, he doesn't say that selfishness and overindulgence automatically and always causes dukkha, but that it most likely will cause dukkha.

The other part of this discussion that I always like to keep in front of people's minds is that dukkha often carries some different meanings than those most commonly associated with the english word suffering.

 

[Me Myself]

I would rather suffer. The alternative feels like a loss of life to me akin to the person who is afraid of leaving the house for fear of losing his/her life. I am going to live in a tent for fear that I will suffer when I lose my house? Quite frankly I prefer to live in a house and take my chances on suffering loss.

It is the age old saying: "It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all."

"Sell all to the poor and follow me." "Those that choose their wifeves, mothers, fathers, possesions over me, are not worthy of me"

Christianity is very far from being a self indulgent religion. It prays d-atachment left and right and it teaches you to lighten up the second you are suffering "When you suffer because of me, rejoice"

"Be the light of the world, that is here but is not tainted by it" Jesus preaches de-atachment constantly.

"If someone ask you something give it to him and give him more than he asked for" I am paraphrasing indeed, but Jesus clearly wanted us not to be attached to any possesion of ours nor any relationship above that with God or altruism.

Theoreticaly if a thief robbs you, Christ says to give him all you have willfully and offer him more. It is written there, not unclearly.

Jesus didn´t even preach self defense. "If someone slaps you one cheek give him the other one". he was the King of de-atachment, he wasn´t attached to his own body.

 

[Straw Dog]

How does it make others suffer? And how do others suffering make us suffer?

Consider how capitalist, and mixed, economics demands perpetual growth and expansion on a planet with limited resources. Sure many of those resources come through trading with people half-way across the world, but eventually these limited resources are going to dry up for everyone and it was all because we established a system of over-indulgence rather than one of moderation and compassion for other people and life forms.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

How does it make others suffer? And how do others suffering make us suffer?

You are taking resources that will only slightly decrease your suffering when you could give it to a starving person and greatly decrease their suffering.

As for how suffering people make you suffer: welfare, beggars, robbers, etc.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

You are taking resources that will only slightly decrease your suffering when you could give it to a starving person and greatly decrease their suffering.

As for how suffering people make you suffer: welfare, beggars, robbers, etc.

I agree if they really need it and deserve it, then yeah give them some.

I'm not speaking of being selfish in the sense that you have to be a jerk to others, but I mean don't limit yourself when you have it all there. Get the most.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I agree if they really need it and deserve it, then yeah give them some.

I'm not speaking of being selfish in the sense that you have to be a jerk to others, but I mean don't limit yourself when you have it all there. Get the most.

Would you apply that same logic to yourself? If you were starving and someone (who is obviously not as hungry as you) asked to assess your worth and ration food to you based on that worth, would you find it fair?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm interested in Buddha's wise intake on how to avoid suffering and what causes it, and I can in general agree that attachment causes suffering, or can, but I don't agree that selfishness and overindulging causes suffering.

You can avoid attachment while being overindulgent.


Thoughts?

I just want a good explanation of why suffering is wrong.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I just want a good explanation of why suffering is wrong.

...which has no bearing on this discussion.