Buddhism and Bahai Scriptures: Sun and Moon symbolism

[InvestigateTruth]

In the series of threads related to evidence of oneness of source of inspiration in all World Religions, based on identical symbolic expressions in the scriptures of great religions, here is a comparion of the meaning of "the Sun and Moon and Clouds", in Buddhism and Bahai scriptures.

In Buddhism Scriptures, one of the symbolic meanings of the term "the Sun and Moon", is the "ascetics and brahmins". It is written that just as the clouds prevent the light of sun and moon from shining, so does certain wrong deeds cause "ascetics and brahmins" not to shine.

Now, one of the signs of the End in Bible, is the Sun and Moon shall not give light anymore.

Bahaullah intrrpretation of the meaning of "the sun and moon" shall not give light, exactly is how we can see in the Buddhism scriptures. He explains by the Sun and Moon, is not meant the literal sun and moon in the Sky, but the deeds, and commandments no longer give light.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reference from Buddhism Scriptures:

The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha

This is explained in Sutta, which I summarize it:

"Bhikkhus, there are these four defilements of the sun and
moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze,
and radiate.. What four? Clouds are a defilement of the sun and
moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze,
and radiate; fog is a defilement of the sun and moon . . . smoke
and dust is a defilement of the sun and moon... and Rahu, lord
of the asuras, is a defilement of the sun and moon because of
which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate. These
are the four defilements of the sun and moon because of which
the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate.
"So too, bhikkhus, there are four defilements of ascetics and
brahmins because of which some ascetics and brahmins do not
shine, blaze, and radiate. What four?
(1) "There are som e ascetics and. brahmins who drink liquor
arid wine arid do not refrain from drinking liquor and wine.
This is the first defilement of ascetics and brahmins because
of which some ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(2) "There are some ascetics and brahmins who indulge in
sexual intercou rse and do not refrain from sexual intercourse.
This is the second defilement of ascetics and brahm ins because
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(3) "There are som e ascetics and brahmins who accept gold
and silver and do n ot refrain from receiving gold and silver.
This is the third defilem ent of ascetics and brahm ins because
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(4) "There are some ascetics and brahm ins who earn their
living by wrong livelihood and do not refrain from wrong live-
lihood. This is the fourth defilement of ascetics and brahm ins
becau se of w h ich some ascetics and brahm ins do not shine,
blaze., and radiate.
"These are the four defilements of ascetics and brahm ins [54]
becau se of which some ascetics and brahmins do not shine],
blaze, and radiate


Bahai scriptures:


"It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth
forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence.

..it is clear and manifest that by the words “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” is intended the waywardness of the divines, and the annulment of laws firmly established by divine Revelation, all of which, in symbolic language, have been foreshadowed by the Manifestation of God. None except the righteous shall partake of this cup, none but the godly can share therein. “The righteous shall drink of a cup tempered at the camphor fountain.”

It is unquestionable that in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence.

.....

In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal
unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

 

[loverofhumanity]

In the series of threads related to evidence of oneness of source of inspiration in all World Religions, based on identical symbolic expressions in the scriptures of great religions, here is a comparion of the meaning of "the Sun and Moon and Clouds", in Buddhism and Bahai scriptures.

In Buddhism Scriptures, one of the symbolic meanings of the term "the Sun and Moon", is the "ascetics and brahmins". It is written that just as the clouds prevent the light of sun and moon from shining, so does certain wrong deeds cause "ascetics and brahmins" not to shine.

Now, one of the signs of the End in Bible, is the Sun and Moon shall not give light anymore.

Bahaullah intrrpretation of the meaning of "the sun and moon" shall not give light, exactly is how we can see in the Buddhism scriptures. He explains by the Sun and Moon, is not meant the literal sun and moon in the Sky, but the deeds, and commandments no longer give light.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reference from Buddhism Scriptures:
This is explained in Sutta, which I summarize it:

"Bhikkhus, there are these four defilements of the sun and
moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze,
and radiate.. What four? Clouds are a defilement of the sun and
moon becau se of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze,
and radiate; fog is a defilement of the sun and moon . . . smoke
and dust is a defilement of the sun and moon... and Rahu, lord
of the asuras, is a defilement of the sun and moon because of
which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate. These
are the four defilem ents of the sun and moon because of which
the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate.
"So too, bhikkhus, there are four defilements of ascetics and
brahm ins b ecause of which som e ascetics and brahmins do not
shine, blaze, and radiate. What four?
(1) "There are som e ascetics and. brahm insw ho drink liquor
arid w in e arid do not refrain from drinking liquor and wine.
This is the first defilem ent of ascetics and b rah m ins b ecause
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(2) "There are some ascetics and brahmins who indulge in
sexual intercou rse and do not refrain from sexual intercourse.
This is the second defilem ent of ascetics and brahm ins because
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(3) "T h ere are som e ascetics and brahm ins w h o accep t gold
and silver and do n ot refrain from receiving gold and silver.
This is the third defilem ent of ascetics and brahm ins because
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(4) "T h ere are som e ascetics and brahm ins w ho earn their
living by w ro n g livelihood and do not refrain from w ro n g live-
lihood. This is the fourth defilement of ascetics and brahm ins
b ecau se of w h ich som e ascetics and brahm ins do n ot shine,
blaze., an d radiate.
"These are the four defilements of ascetics and brahm ins [54]
b ecau se of w h ich som e ascetics and brahm ins do n ot shine],
blaze, and radiate


Bahai scriptures:


"It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth
forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence.

..it is clear and manifest that by the words “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” is intended the waywardness of the divines, and the annulment of laws firmly established by divine Revelation, all of which, in symbolic language, have been foreshadowed by the Manifestation of God. None except the righteous shall partake of this cup, none but the godly can share therein. “The righteous shall drink of a cup tempered at the camphor fountain.”

It is unquestionable that in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence.

.....

In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal
unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

Beautiful comparison. Id like the source Sutta to keep for reference.Very insightful by Buddha.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Those Buddhist passages are from the Numerical Discourses of the Buddha.

 

[Vinayaka]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reference from Buddhism Scriptures:
This is explained in Sutta, which I summarize it:

"Bhikkhus, there are these four defilements of the sun and
moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze,
and radiate.. What four? Clouds are a defilement of the sun and
moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze,
and radiate; fog is a defilement of the sun and moon . . . smoke
and dust is a defilement of the sun and moon... and Rahu, lord
of the asuras, is a defilement of the sun and moon because of
which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate. These
are the four defilements of the sun and moon because of which
the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate.
"So too, bhikkhus, there are four defilements of ascetics and
brahmins because of which some ascetics and brahmins do not
shine, blaze, and radiate. What four?
(1) "There are som e ascetics and. brahmins who drink liquor
arid wine arid do not refrain from drinking liquor and wine.
This is the first defilement of ascetics and brahmins because
of which some ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(2) "There are some ascetics and brahmins who indulge in
sexual intercou rse and do not refrain from sexual intercourse.
This is the second defilement of ascetics and brahm ins because
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(3) "There are som e ascetics and brahmins who accept gold
and silver and do n ot refrain from receiving gold and silver.
This is the third defilem ent of ascetics and brahm ins because
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(4) "There are some ascetics and brahm ins who earn their
living by wrong livelihood and do not refrain from wrong live-
lihood. This is the fourth defilement of ascetics and brahm ins
becau se of w h ich some ascetics and brahm ins do not shine,
blaze., and radiate.
"These are the four defilements of ascetics and brahm ins [54]
becau se of which some ascetics and brahmins do not shine],
blaze, and radiate

This is your summary, IT?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is your summary, IT?

More specifically, selected and copied parts of scriptures. Can easily be known by googling. I had planned to make it more brief, so the readers do not get bored.
What difference does it make? My summary or someone else. The point is to show identical symbolism in various scriptures! Let's not scape from the important points, by picking on unimportant matters.

 

[Vinayaka]

More specifically, selected and copied parts of scriptures. Can easily be known by googling. I had planned to make it more brief, so the readers do not get bored.
What difference does it make? My summary or someone else. The point is to show identical symbolism in various scriptures! Let's not scape from the important points, by picking on unimportant matters.

Copy and paste, then claim it's yours? Sounds like plagiarism to me.
The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha

 

[whirlingmerc]

In the series of threads related to evidence of oneness of source of inspiration in all World Religions, based on identical symbolic expressions in the scriptures of great religions, here is a comparion of the meaning of "the Sun and Moon and Clouds", in Buddhism and Bahai scriptures.

In Buddhism Scriptures, one of the symbolic meanings of the term "the Sun and Moon", is the "ascetics and brahmins". It is written that just as the clouds prevent the light of sun and moon from shining, so does certain wrong deeds cause "ascetics and brahmins" not to shine.

Now, one of the signs of the End in Bible, is the Sun and Moon shall not give light anymore.

Bahaullah intrrpretation of the meaning of "the sun and moon" shall not give light, exactly is how we can see in the Buddhism scriptures. He explains by the Sun and Moon, is not meant the literal sun and moon in the Sky, but the deeds, and commandments no longer give light.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reference from Buddhism Scriptures:
This is explained in Sutta, which I summarize it:

"Bhikkhus, there are these four defilements of the sun and
moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze,
and radiate.. What four? Clouds are a defilement of the sun and
moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze,
and radiate; fog is a defilement of the sun and moon . . . smoke
and dust is a defilement of the sun and moon... and Rahu, lord
of the asuras, is a defilement of the sun and moon because of
which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate. These
are the four defilements of the sun and moon because of which
the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate.
"So too, bhikkhus, there are four defilements of ascetics and
brahmins because of which some ascetics and brahmins do not
shine, blaze, and radiate. What four?
(1) "There are som e ascetics and. brahmins who drink liquor
arid wine arid do not refrain from drinking liquor and wine.
This is the first defilement of ascetics and brahmins because
of which some ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(2) "There are some ascetics and brahmins who indulge in
sexual intercou rse and do not refrain from sexual intercourse.
This is the second defilement of ascetics and brahm ins because
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(3) "There are som e ascetics and brahmins who accept gold
and silver and do n ot refrain from receiving gold and silver.
This is the third defilem ent of ascetics and brahm ins because
of w hich som e ascetics and brahmins do not shine, blaze, and
radiate.
(4) "There are some ascetics and brahm ins who earn their
living by wrong livelihood and do not refrain from wrong live-
lihood. This is the fourth defilement of ascetics and brahm ins
becau se of w h ich some ascetics and brahm ins do not shine,
blaze., and radiate.
"These are the four defilements of ascetics and brahm ins [54]
becau se of which some ascetics and brahmins do not shine],
blaze, and radiate


Bahai scriptures:


"It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth
forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence.

..it is clear and manifest that by the words “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” is intended the waywardness of the divines, and the annulment of laws firmly established by divine Revelation, all of which, in symbolic language, have been foreshadowed by the Manifestation of God. None except the righteous shall partake of this cup, none but the godly can share therein. “The righteous shall drink of a cup tempered at the camphor fountain.”

It is unquestionable that in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence.

.....

In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal
unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

I suppose it depends on what you mean by inspiration

God can superintend all things to prepare for the revelation of Jesus
including using the hopes of other religions in a sense
Caesar's birth could be claimed heralded by a star for example...

Does it mean they are the same because of superficial similarities
no they are not

 

[loverofhumanity]

Copy and paste, then claim it's yours? Sounds like plagiarism to me.
The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha

I pasted the source in my second post. Beautiful talk by the Buddha.

 

[Vinayaka]

I pasted the source in my second post. Beautiful talk by the Buddha.

Yes, and you didn't claim you summarise it. That's the difference. 'Cut and paste' is fine, as long as everyone knows, and proper acknowledgement is given.

I don't like 'cut and paste' personally, as I prefer to talk to the individuals themselves, as we have slowly progressed to in our dialogues. With 'cut and paste' I've often found the individual who does it doesn't understand half of it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Copy and paste, then claim it's yours? Sounds like plagiarism to me.
The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha

Didn’t you see both my posts? I acknowledged it was from the Buddha in the first post and that I wanted the source then I found it and posted the source in my second post before you had begun posting on this thread.

Interestingly these terms sun and moon being darkened occur in the Christian Bible and Quran also but they interpret it literally as the physical sun and moon. That it possibly could be referring to the religious leaders is awesome in light of current day events in Christianity and Islam where many ‘moons have been darkened’.

To me it’s a thrilling discovery of the great insight of the Buddha and the fact both He and Baha’u’llah are in complete harmony here.

Undeniably unity of scripture in my opinion.

 

[Vinayaka]

Didn’t you see both my posts? I acknowledged it was from the Buddha in the first post and that I wanted the source then I found it and posted the source in my second post before you had begun posting on this thread.

Interestingly these terms sun and moon being darkened occur in the Christian Bible and Quran also but they interpret it literally as the physical sun and moon. That it possibly could be referring to the religious leaders is awesome in light of current day events in Christianity and Islam where many ‘moons have been darkened’.

To me it’s a thrilling discovery of the great insight of the Buddha and the fact both He and Baha’u’llah are in complete harmony here.

Undeniably unity of scripture in my opinion.

I was addressing IT in the first post, not you. Please go read post 1 again. As for sun, moon, and all that, it's just more cherrypicking. The sun and moon have been used as analogies quite a lot, maybe in more than one religion.

You could probably do the same with things like water, fire, night, clouds, food, etc. These are just common things to this planet, and our survival. Just because two religious leaders uses some common ones in their analogies or explanations doesn't really mean anything. Anybody who knows how to search for specific words could find them. That doesn't necessarily imply that it means some sort of commonality. It might, but then again it might not.

By behaviour, attitude, way of life, etc. it's clear that Buddhism and Baha'ism are very far apart. A simple example is monasticism. It's extremely common in Buddhism, but unheard of in Baha'i.

 

[ManSinha]

This would appear to be a continuation of the "quickening" thread with its debunked references and the references to Kalki and the Savior in Revelation.

You are stating there is similarity and symbolism

The other options are:

1. Plagiarism since one came after another
2. Co incidental references similar to those about charity and kindness to others etc

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Vinayaka and @ManSinha

You guys are raising false alarms when you falsely accuse me of plagiarism. Those are obviously words of Buddha, as I clearly wrote they are from Sutta, I provided a summary of quotes.
If you quote from the Quran, do you have to put the link to the Quran, or it's just enough to say, these verses are in the Quran?
I was hoping you can concentrate on the OP instead of trying to derail the thread.
Anyways, I think, because you cannot logically disprove the OP, or give any good you are making excuses that they are plagiarism. Did you honestly think, I claimed I am making up a story abouy Buddha?

Those Buddhist passages are from the Numerical Discourses of the Buddha.

But aren't they originally in the Sutta? Numerical Discourses of Buddha, are getting the quotes from the Sutta, right?

 

[Vinayaka]

@Vinayaka and @ManSinha

You guys are raising false alarms when you falsely accuse me of plagiarism. Those are obviously words of Buddha, as I clearly wrote they are from Sutta, I provided a summary of quotes.
If you quote from the Quran, do you have to put the link to the Quran, or it's just enough to say, these verses are in the Quran?
I was hoping you can concentrate on the OP instead of trying to derail the thread.
Anyways, I think, because you cannot logically disprove the OP, or give any good you are making excuses that they are plagiarism. Did you honestly think, I claimed I am making up a story abouy Buddha?

But aren't they originally in the Sutta? Numerical Discourses of Buddha, are getting the quotes from the Sutta, right?

Then what exactly does "I summarised it" mean to you? To me, it means that a person looks at something, reads it, and then rewrites it to get all the essential points. In essence summarising is shortening, a form of editing. It's not 'cut and paste'. Perhaps we have different definitions.

 

[ManSinha]

This would appear to be a continuation of the "quickening" thread with its debunked references and the references to Kalki and the Savior in Revelation.

You are stating there is similarity and symbolism

The other options are:

1. Plagiarism since one came after another
2. Co incidental references similar to those about charity and kindness to others etc

I am not accusing you of plagiarism - read it again

I am saying the writing in the Buddhist literature came first and the Bah'ai texts later - plagiarism is one of the possibilities

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am not accusing you of plagiarism - read it again

I am saying the writing in the Buddhist literature came first and the Bah'ai texts later - plagiarism is one of the possibilities

Thus why bring up an unproved negation, as it is just as much a possibility that they are both talking about the same Truth and with discussion and exploration of scriptures we may find afirmation.

What is wrong with looking for common good in all things?

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

Thus why bring up an unproved negation, as it is just as much a possibility that they are both talking about the same Truth and with discussion and exploration of scriptures we may find afirmation.

This is a debate forum - not a Kumbaya one - it is ok to bring up any and all possibilities

 

[Vinayaka]

I am not accusing you of plagiarism - read it again

I am saying the writing in the Buddhist literature came first and the Bah'ai texts later - plagiarism is one of the possibilities

I was suggesting it sounded like plagiarism, to say you had summarised something, when a simple search found it word for word. All it takes to correct that is to say the source, or give a link. When people say things on this forum, and it sounds very much like it's not their words, people do check on it. At least the Baha'is never quote their prophet and not say it was from him.

From what I can tell, and by their own omission, if there was plagiarism, it would be from Islam, not from any of the dharmic faiths. Still, the Baha'i did get the idea of ahimsa from somewhere. There is also the real unfortunate trend of never giving credit where credit is due anyway. In an earlier discussion, I was informed that Gandhi was Gandhi because of Baha'ullah. There is a real exaggeration of the sphere of influence their prophet had. (In my view)

 

[Vinayaka]

Thus why bring up an unproved negation, as it is just as much a possibility that they are both talking about the same Truth and with discussion and exploration of scriptures we may find afirmation.

What is wrong with looking for common good in all things?

Nothing wrong with looking for it. But it is wrong to claim you've found it, by distorting or altering the words to suit that idea. That's the part we're objecting to, I think.

Australia and New Zealand have a lot in common, both former British Empire. Both British Commonwealth, both in the South pacific, similar governments, but they are most certainly not identical, are they? In another thread of the same vein, the word 'identical' was indeed used.

Identical symbolism in Non-Abrahami and Abrahamic Scriptures

Identical? Really?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is a debate forum - not a Kumbaya one - it is ok to bring up any and all possibilities

I am a Kumbaya type person now.
I can tell you that is a walking miracle.

Regards Tony