Buddha's teaching on Free will vs determinism (help)

[SageTree]

Hello Friends,


Having a talk with a man who I feel is sort of off on his view here.

It sounds like he's taking a completely nihilistic and deterministic view of things,
and I'm sort of at a loss in how to explain/what to show him to help him balance his view.

I'm wondering if you have some dharma talks, articles or quotes from scripture/scripture to share with him on the matter.


Thanks.

:namaste
SageTree

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

Buddhism is a Shramana tradition - a teaching which emphasizes the responsibility of the individual (even though considered 'empty') in managing their own affairs. In short, it emphasizes free will and personal endeavor.

The eightfold path makes no sense whatsoever without this.

One of the primary reasons Buddha generally held his silence in regards to Devas, soul, etc. and his outright condemnation of Vedic Brahminism is because of the fatalistic tendencies that crop up with these doctrines.

I'm hardpressed to pick out some particular text as every Buddhist text will reflect this on one level or another.

 

[SageTree]

The eightfold path makes no sense whatsoever without this.

Good to see this. That was my exact thought.

I understand that a lot of religious dogma is a reaction to something else it's countering,
which is why the silence was so interesting

Thanks for your quick reply.

For starters on the matter,

I by no means claim to know it all, but.....
This man is newish to Buddhism and has taken his vows, has an active sangha etc...
I don't want him to feel wronged.... or discouraged.
I just don't want him to start off on the wrong foot and hit a wall before he really gets started.

I'm not the one coming out of left field here with my thoughts on the matter. And I know I'm not but am at a loss for how to say something he hears to him to help.

I'm the one who has been reading/studying/practicing etc for nearly 10 years...
And what you said is where I am at with the matter as well.

This has all been a lesson is ego for sure

And I feel like I'm to the point of saying 'DUDE... come on now....'
since he basically refutes what I've shown and shared with him 100%
Like agrees with no parts of it.

Starting sentences with 'As a Buddhist' then laying out completely jive information ya know?

And it's not my intention to pwn him over the matter, but I feel a responsibility as part of his on-line Sangha and to the Dharma to make sure facts are straight as they can be, so he can understand better....

And responsibility to the people he's telling this information to, so they aren't equally misguided as these folks are thirsty to know about Buddhism and have questions.

:namaste

 

[Shuddhasattva]

If you're up for a bit of a hunt, you could look for sutra verses that specifically state that free will, albeit conditioned by karmic fruit and pratitya samutpada, and without an actual, substantial actor, is the reality.

 

[SageTree]

If you're up for a bit of a hunt, you could look for sutra verses that specifically state that free will, albeit conditioned by karmic fruit and pratitya samutpada, and without an actual, substantial actor, is the reality.

Hey now... that's why I started the thread


But seriously, I've been searching up some stuff as well


No doubt even our in our freedom to choose.... it's still from the best set of conditions, because they are ALL conditions of some sort. The most skillful illusion is the goal I guess you could say?

 

[AmerikanZen]

I'll have to get my post count up before I can contribute and post links.

Look up 'Miccba Dittbi' which constitutes "false views" ~ Its from the classic 'What the Buddha taught' by W. Rahula.

 

[SageTree]

Here is the PDF:

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Bhante_Walpola_Rahula-What_the_Buddha_Taught.pdf

 

[SageTree]

Page 53 in the book, not the PDF talks about it.

Basically said:

Free will isn't free because of conditioning, because of interconnectedness, dependant arising and there being no "Self" which to be have will.... Freedom is only "Free Will" as it is also conditioned.



Not really what I'm trying to dispute with my Friend here.
I understand what is said there and that he's seemed to take this to an extreme view.

He's more to the place that he sounds not responsible for his actions and emotions,
like what IS supposed to happen WILL happen, regardless of our doings.

 

[AmerikanZen]

Thanks! that .pdf was exactly what I was looking for early this morning.

 

[SageTree]

Cheers


:namaste

 

[AmerikanZen]

From a beginner's POV it sounds like the Buddha does alot of "explaining away" of spiritual metaphysics...which "can" constitute the universal dharma.

 

[SageTree]

Elaborate on that if you can.

 

[AmerikanZen]

No need to elaborate, prefer to keep things a simple as possible.

"Spiritual Metaphysics" would be dealt with in that philosophical book -Creative Mind- by Henri Bergson.

 

[SageTree]

No need to elaborate, prefer to keep things a simple as possible.

"Spiritual Metaphysics" would be dealt with in that philosophical book -Creative Mind- by Henri Bergson.

Oh I meant the whole thing


You mean to say 'How Buddhism became a path that could be applied to any other path?'

 

[AmerikanZen]

Oh I meant the whole thing


You mean to say 'How Buddhism became a path that could be applied to any other path?'

I would say . . . "to tread and follow the Path that no man has ever followed before."

 

[Straw Dog]

If your friend has nihilistic tendencies then it may be beneficial to contrast it with the other extreme view of eternalism. Through comparison, he may come to realize the extreme nature of his own position as well as a way to find the middle path between the two leading to a better understanding.

 

[SageTree]

Thanks Straw Dog

 

[AmerikanZen]

Well, the idea of going extinct and beyond Nirvana is a bit Nihilisitic in itself.

 

[SageTree]

Nirvana can be nihilistic too, methinks.

Oh middle!

 

[Secret Chief]

To claim complete freedom would seem preposterous to anyone I would have thought. As a Buddhist, if there is no freedom at all how can moral progress be made? What would be the purpose of the practice of our lives?