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British Invasions(The British are coming)

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Britain explicitly stated they would continue to impress merchant sailors, including American citizens of British origin (who were still deemed British), if and when they needed to. What happened was the Napoleonic Wars ended and so there was less need to.

They also continued to assert the right to interdict neutral ships trading with those Britain deemed hostile.

For Britain the war was really just a minor theatre of the Napoleonic Wars, and everything needs to be viewed in that context. America was seen as being pro-France.

During the Napoleonic Wars Britain wanted to limit French trade with America, when the war ended this was less of an issue.

At this time, free trade benefitted Britain due to manufacturing being more lucrative than raw material export, so were happy to resume trading after the 1812 war given that this is what they wanted in the first place.

America got absolutely no concessions whatsoever at the end of the war and any changes were due to changing conditions in Europe.

I wasn't really speaking of the treaty or any concessions, but just the general outcome in the decades following the war, as the war didn't really impede America's development or further expansion. We became stronger after the War of 1812, not weaker, and this growth can be seen in every ensuing decade leading up to the Spanish-American War at the close of the century. No one, not even Britain, could have stopped that in the long run.

The Royal Navy was blockading Napoleon in Europe at the same time as they had done many times. Naval blockades were par for the course, and after the Napoleonic Wars it's unlikely anyone would have wanted to start a European War to defend American trade. There would be little to gain and much to lose.

Unlikely under the actual circumstances which occurred, yes. But in your hypothetical scenario, we were talking about Britain's leadership going mad and launching an all-out war of mass destruction on the seas. You think other European powers would have stood by while Britain guts world trade?

What would have happened is the American economy would have collapsed. The limited blockade had forced significant government borrowing with very poor terms on top as well as significant wartime taxation, created inflation as internal transport costs increased, reduced global trade all of which damaged the creditworthiness of the government. A continuation would have led to bankruptcy.

A weakening of the federal government might have led to stronger state governments - which may have reduced their willingness to compromise in the coming years. It's all "what if," so it's hard to say what might have happened.

It wasn't meant to starve America, just damage their economy.

You don't need to blockade the whole coast, just the main ports that handle significant amounts of international and domestic trade.

The point is, America didn't really need "trade" to survive, not in the same way that Britain did. It might have been an inconvenience, but the people and land were still there, expanding, building, and development. That process never really stopped.

The only thing that posed a problem were internal difficulties, such as the split between free states and slave states, as well as the barriers to expansion, such as the Native American tribes whom Britain was helping - but that stopped after the war. That was as much a reason as anything else to go to war, although by today's standards, it wasn't a very noble reason. That was more of an issue on Americans' minds than trade.

As long as we had something to sell, there would always be someone to buy it. Britain might have caused a temporary interruption, but it couldn't have lasted very long before the consequences would start to affect their economy. Britain had to play the short game, while America could afford to play the long game.

America could defend its territory pretty well. Militias could be good for defending and fighting locally in their homeland and no one could reasonably have conquered and subjugated the country in the long term.

As was shown with the invasion of Canada (the capture of which was a goal for Jefferson, Madison, etc. as a means of getting Britain out of the continent and denying them important resources), militias were pretty useless for projecting power and fighting to win someone else some land.

The navy also could not project power and was largely a coastal defence force.

At various times, Britain, France and Spain all violated the Monroe Doctrine with impunity, and any deterrent was provided by the Royal Navy when it suited British national interest.

It's a bit like when the Pope divided the New World between Spain and Portugal, and everyone continued to do what they liked anyway because there was no means of enforcement.

I think it should have been pretty clear at that point - at least among those with a knowledge of geography and America's long-term potential - that it wouldn't be long before America would be a formidable power. The flaw in your reasoning here is that you're taking a synchronic snapshot of history and assuming that it would have been like that in perpetuity, but that's not what happened.

Even after the defeat of Napoleon and the Congress of Vienna, Europe only had a veneer of stability under the Metternich System. Nationalistic ideals started to gain greater traction, and the discontent of the lower classes would eventually come to a head in 1848, the same year Americans were rushing for gold in newly-acquired California.

The first bit isn't really true, and I don't really have a great knowledge of the 2nd.

How much did Spain even want this land though? Spain was a major theatre of the Napoleonic Wars and they had just fought an independence war from France. I would assume spending money to protect underdeveloped colonial territories probably wasn't all that high on their list of priorities.

I know, at some point, they had pretty much abandoned some territories in what is now the Southern US as they were taking an arse-whooping from Native American tribes like the Comanches. Not great with timelines for this though or the bigger political picture.

To me it seems like a lot of the things America 'won' are really just organic consequences of the end of the Napoleonic Wars and changing European priorities.

The Spanish colonial empire in America was on the verge of revolution, as there was widespread rebellion, some of which was inspired by the American Revolution and the French Revolution. I wouldn't say that the Spanish didn't want to keep Florida, but if America decided to move in and take it, they were hardly in a position to stop them. As you said, they couldn't enforce their will, and in any case, Spain had bigger problems to worry about. A few years after the US acquired Florida (and were already moving into Texas as "illegal aliens"), Mexico plunged into revolution and gained independence, inheriting all of what Spain had previously claimed in what would later become part of the U.S. (although it was sparsely populated and they didn't have much control over it).

As far as what America "won," I would call it a psychological victory. It boosted America's confidence, even if it was somewhat incidental and contrived after the fact. I can't say what would have happened if the U.S. chose to not declare war in 1812, although I think a case can be made that we were better off in the long run having fought than if we hadn't.

Europe took another course, and it would only be a mere 3 decades after that they would plunge into chaos themselves - although Britain's detachment might have spared them much of the struggle that happened on the continent. The growth of Russia and Prussia was a far bigger concern for Britain, while we didn't really have to worry about things like that in America.

If anyone knows about it in Britain though, it's generally because they are interested in history and have spent their own time reading about it. As a pure guess <5% of the population might be aware of it.

It's not really surprising given that it was really just a minor theatre of the Napoleonic Wars and there were many exponentially more important events happening in Europe at this time

I hadn't heard of it until I was in my mid 20s, and even then it was random. I think it was from Wikipedia when reading about the US anthem.

Most events seem to fade into obscurity and/or myth the further back they go. How many people know much about the Hundred Years War? Or the Thirty Years War? Even many of the various Indian Wars which have occurred tend to be forgotten.

In America it is part of the national foundation myth though (as it is in Canada), and via the national anthem has some pop-culture resonance. DO they teach it in schools?

They did teach it when I was in school, but it was with a pro-American point of view. Though even then, it wasn't really considered significant, at least in terms of the actual war itself, even if it might have carried some measure of drama to it.

It seems that the war was more of a marker, ending the era of the Founders and moving on to the next era.

Maybe it's not such a big deal in Britain, and that's understandable, considering the circumstances and their perceptions of the world - both back then and now.

Though it does surprise me to some degree, at least in the sense that I've encountered many people from elsewhere in the world who seem to make a point of knowing a lot about America, particularly American politics and our role as a world leader. I've seen many Brits who are extremely critical of America and seem to have a good deal of knowledge of what goes on here. They seem to be better informed than many Americans, I'm sorry to say. But maybe I'm just encountering a certain sub-set of those who have a special interest in America.

It's like most Brits can tell you William the Conquerer invaded in 1066, Henry VIII and his 6 wives and that we single handedly won WW2 by standing alone against Hitler, inventing radar and a bouncing bomb, winning the Battle of Britain then invading Europe on D-Day :D but most people couldn't tell you much beyond that.

Popular understanding of significant events in a nation's history tends not to be overly concerned with the accurate rendition of facts after all.

So, it seems that Brits are just as clueless about history as many Americans are reputed to be.

Sheesh, doesn't she know that it was in fact the mother country that invented freedom as they were free born Englishmen protected by the ancient Anglo-Saxon constitution and who loved their liberty and refused to live under tyranny like those feeble perfidious continental Europeans with their absolutist monarchies? :rolleyes:

(Joking aside, 17th C English post-Glorious Revolution conceits about liberty are basically identical to the American tropes which is quite funny given American how America now views it)

I think the general purpose in that kind of early upbringing was to promote patriotism and love of country, just like kids are forced to go to church at an early age.

An interesting point raised by Lincoln in his Gettysburg Address was this: "The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here."

The irony is that "what we say" is all that anyone really remembers. "What they did" is sometimes distorted. I'm not just referring to Gettysburg, but any event in history.

I actually had to memorize the Gettysburg Address and played the part of Lincoln in a school history pageant we did in sixth grade. It probably would have made some university professors of history cringe today, but it was fun.
 
Unlikely under the actual circumstances which occurred, yes. But in your hypothetical scenario, we were talking about Britain's leadership going mad and launching an all-out war of mass destruction on the seas. You think other European powers would have stood by while Britain guts world trade?

They had already reduced US international trade by something like 90% by volume on top of the harm to domestic trade before the end of the war. It would barely have been an escalation of what was already happening, let alone 'going mad and gutting world trade'.

Britain had done similar things to France, Spain and Holland in recent memory prior to this. It was normal. In return Napoleon had tried to stop trade with Britain from pretty much all of the European continent (without a great deal of success).

One of Britain's demands before even beginning negotiations for the Treaty of Ghent was that any discussion of Britain's maritime rights, including naval blockades was off the table.

As Britain didn't want the war in the first place, at the start they had offered a deal that would mean they allowed American ships to trade with France without harassment which America rejected.

They US technically got a worse deal at the war's end as there was no guarantee for US ships, although the threat to US shipping was lower unless war with France had broken out again.

The point is, America didn't really need "trade" to survive, not in the same way that Britain did. It might have been an inconvenience, but the people and land were still there, expanding, building, and development. That process never really stopped...

As long as we had something to sell, there would always be someone to buy it. Britain might have caused a temporary interruption, but it couldn't have lasted very long before the consequences would start to affect their economy. Britain had to play the short game, while America could afford to play the long game.

There is a big difference between a country being theoretically agriculturally self-sufficient, and "not needing to trade".

This is what the blockade did to the US economy, note the sharp uptick when more ships became available in 1814.

upload_2022-11-30_19-49-38.png



Also, ports are needed for domestic trade and blocking them has significant effects transporting food overland is very slow and very inefficient leading to wastage and price inflation. This is combined with business bankruptcies, a credit shortage, increasing unemployment, etc. and you have a severe problem.

The US government was near bankrupt, having to borrow on poor terms and having to levy unpopular taxes just to keep afloat.

As long as we had something to sell, there would always be someone to buy it. Britain might have caused a temporary interruption, but it couldn't have lasted very long before the consequences would start to affect their economy. Britain had to play the short game, while America could afford to play the long game.

There will be no one to buy it if there is no one to ship it to where it needs to be. Even if you can get past the blockade, you run the chance of being interdicted and losing your cargo and ship. So its often not worth the risk, and those who are willing to risk it want to be paid accordingly.

Britain could blockade ports for years (and had done this). Sailors might not set foot on land for several years in normal service and ships are resupplied at sea. I remember reading about one admiral during the Napoleonic Wars who didn't set foot on land for 5 years.

Blockades were among the most cost effective military strategies. In 1811 US exports were $61 million, in 1814 they were $6.9 million in 1815 back to $52.5 million. Imports + exports: 1811 =119 million 1814 = 19.8 million and 1815 jumps to 137.9 million.

As far as what America "won," I would call it a psychological victory. It boosted America's confidence, even if it was somewhat incidental and contrived after the fact. I can't say what would have happened if the U.S. chose to not declare war in 1812, although I think a case can be made that we were better off in the long run having fought than if we hadn't.

That's a fair enough point. It's why I find it so funny. All of the mythologising only makes sense if Britain was the aggressor and America beat them into submission so they sued for peace.

The fact that the last battle was a clear US victory and was known about in America before the news of the peace treaty helped in this regard. It made it look like the defeat is what won the war.

When you look at the real context though things look very different.

America was the one who declared war in order to win concessions on impressment and freedom of US shipping (and probably also as it was a good opportunity to get some land).

They were offered freedom of US shipping before the war and in exchange for a ceasefire at the very start of the war but thought they could win more concessions/land, as Britain was busy fighting Napoleon.

Instead they failed miserably in Canada and basically ensured it would never be America, had their capital burned down, and had their economy ruined.

At the end, they signed a peace treaty which gave them less than they had been offered before the start of the war and made them specifically acknowledge they could not change British maritime policy in any way. To me that's pretty much a defeat on its own even without the additional losses.

So even though there is a good case that they lost the war (or at least suffered pointless harm to achieve nothing) the shameless spinning and mythologising that was done for domestic political purposes might well have provided a psychological boost.It's not what happened that matters, just what people think happened.

I still find the national anthem hilarious though. It's funny because it's such a bombastic and triumphalist ode to a remarkably unimpressive battle in a pretty unimpressive and needless war.

'Against all odds' 25,000 American troops somehow managed to hold onto their strongly fortified positions against a notoriously difficult amphibious invasion by 5,000 enemy. A handful of people were killed on both sides before the attackers followed their prior orders not to attack if it was too well defended and just sailed off.

Not doing so badly you lost your own city in an unnecessary war you started and where you outnumbered the enemy 5 to 1 and had the advantage of fighting behind heavy fortifications and your enemy had been told not to attack unless it was a soft target is hardly a Thermopylae level feat worthy of eternal memorialisation :D

The Spanish colonial empire in America was on the verge of revolution, as there was widespread rebellion, some of which was inspired by the American Revolution and the French Revolution. I wouldn't say that the Spanish didn't want to keep Florida, but if America decided to move in and take it, they were hardly in a position to stop them. As you said, they couldn't enforce their will, and in any case, Spain had bigger problems to worry about. A few years after the US acquired Florida (and were already moving into Texas as "illegal aliens"), Mexico plunged into revolution and gained independence, inheriting all of what Spain had previously claimed in what would later become part of the U.S. (although it was sparsely populated and they didn't have much control over it).

It was only quite recently I found out how dangerous it was for the settlers and how brutal the conflicts between the Native Americans and settlers were.

It was a really interesting book called Empire of the Summer Moon about the Comanches which has made me quite interested in this period, although I don't know a great deal.

So, it seems that Brits are just as clueless about history as many Americans are reputed to be.

It's pretty much true the world over I'd say. Popular understanding of your nation's history tends towards rose tinted mythologising.

How many people know much about the Hundred Years War? Or the Thirty Years War? Even many of the various Indian Wars which have occurred tend to be forgotten.

I'd say the popular understanding is:

1. Agincourt. Longbows. Beat the French. Don't really remember anything after that other than killing Joan of Arc. Unaware of the losing context around killing Joan of Arc.

2. Was on the continent. Largely unremembered in Britain. A few people might remember someone getting chucked out of window. Some more knowledgable folk have probably learned the myths that it was "a Protestants v Catholics religious war" and ended with The Treaty of Westphalia which "created the modern nation state".

3. Wigwams and palefaces getting scalped. Might have heard of Custer's last stand and the Alamo without being able to tell you anything about them. Dances with Wolves. Last of the Mohicans.

:D
 
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