Bridging the gap

[meogi]

I know many members believe that 'spiritual entities' (e.g. soul, ghosts, spirits) of some sort exist. I want to deal with these entities' interaction with the 'physical' world.

There are three possibilites that I see (please let me know if there are more):

A) The entity is physical.

1. The entity itself should be observable.
2. The interaction with the physical should also be observable.

B) The entity is not physical.

1. The entity need not be observable.
2. Still, the interaction with the physical should be observable.

A: I would place ghosts and sprits in this category. The entities and their interactions should be observable... if not, what warrants their belief? If so, where is the evidence (argued, peer reviewed)? (For personal interactions (self revelations): How do you interact with/witness them? Can this interaction/witnessing be tested/shown?)

B: I would place souls in this category. Like I said, interactions should be observable... if not, how does the entity interact with the phsycial (your conciousness, cessation of interaction after death, etc.)? If so, where is the evidence?

For me, neither warrant belief. Convince me, or maybe I can convince you.

*Note* - I do not mean to disclude souls from A, or spirits and ghosts from B, but these are what I've generally seen them believed as. Please argue from whatever viewpoint you believe.

 

[Tawn]

Whats the thrid possiblity?

 

[meogi]

Whoops... I forgot to change that. Umm...

3) The entity does not exist.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

B.2 is logically flawed. One could posit a supernatural entity whose interaction with the physical is unobservable. In fact, as I've noted more the once, given the existence of the supernatural, there is absolutely no statement one can make with any degree of assurance.

 

[meogi]

One could posit a supernatural entity whose interaction with the physical is unobservable. In fact, as I've noted more the once, given the existence of the supernatural, there is absolutely no statement one can make with any degree of assurance.

Exactly. What warrants the belief then? And how does something interact with the physical, without being observable?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... how does something interact with the physical, without being observable?

Two distinct requirements must be met for something to be 'observable':

• there must be something to observe, and
• there must be something/someone capable of observing.

Once you posit the supernatural, not only can you not guarantee the second condition, but you have no assurance that what passes for observation is anything other than inducs illusion.

 

[Tawn]

And how does something interact with the physical, without being observable?

Well only if our powers of observation are not adequate enough.. or we arent looking in the right places.

What warrants the belief then?

Hope, fear, need for answers to the unanswerable, Power, Delusions... all nicely repackaged under the far more commercially viable term, 'Faith'.

 

[meogi]

No one who actually believes?

The gap remains!

 

[Ahmadi]

B) The entity is not physical.

1. The entity need not be observable.
2. Still, the interaction with the physical should be observable.

B: I would place souls in this category. Like I said, interactions should be observable... if not, how does the entity interact with the phsycial (your conciousness, cessation of interaction after death, etc.)? If so, where is the evidence?

Belief in souls is based on a belief in God. Once you have believed in God, there are alot of other spiritual realities that you are required to believe. Therefore, belief in God warrants the belief in souls and life after death.

As far as God is concerned, the interaction with the physical world is, in fact, observable.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

you have to be able to sense the soul through the Force to see them. To see the universe with your eyes is like looking through a keyhole.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

No one who actually believes?

The gap remains!

Perhaps it doesn't? I only wish I felt more capable of expressing my thoughts among such people that I hold in great esteem. (And that's exactly what mine are- thoughts, not beliefs. I do not say that my version is the only one that could be possible.)

I know skeptics have rather a more reasonable standard of 'proof' than those of us who consider such things thoughtworthy. (By reasonable, I mean they actually want to have proof. Such high standards!) (Just a friendly dig at myself there, hehehee.)

Since I've really not had any experience with other the other things being discussed, I suppose that I would tend to focus on souls.

Meogi, you make an excellent point-

...if not, how does the entity interact with the phsycial (your conciousness, cessation of interaction after death, etc.)? If so, where is the evidence?

While I cannot hope to be sure I can offer evidence, if I may ask, what sort do you have in mind? For example, physical? Things that people could not know otherwise? Again, while I am fairly certain that I cannot hope to debate against such great minds (and that's truth talking, not flattery!), I just wonder if I might be able to help try to bridge the gap from my side.

 

[meogi]

Belief in souls is based on a belief in God. Once you have believed in God, there are alot of other spiritual realities that you are required to believe. Therefore, belief in God warrants the belief in souls and life after death.

Agreed.

As far as God is concerned, the interaction with the physical world is, in fact, observable.

That's the point of this thread. How is this invisible entity (soul) that affects how we make decisions, observable?

you have to be able to sense the soul through the Force to see them. To see the universe with your eyes is like looking through a keyhole.

How do you sense the force? Is there some sort of trick to it? Or, like in Star Wars, is it only available to a select few... in which case, that sucks. Or, rather, shouldn't Midichlorians be observable?

While I cannot hope to be sure I can offer evidence, if I may ask, what sort do you have in mind? For example, physical?

Physical always helps! But I'm really just looking for something that fits in with what science has to say on the matter. (Conciousness, etc., being chemical and electrical interactions in the brain). Oh, and while belief is valid for personal interpretations, it's not objective and isn't useful.

Things that people could not know otherwise?

Things as? I'm not exactly sure about how reincarnation is thought through (it's different in most), but isn't the memory wiped as it is transferred? Also, if it is true all people have this reincarnating soul, why do only few people experience this unknowable knowledge? Indeed, Savants are an interesting topic... and could be key to bridging this gap. Or key to realizing there is no gap at all. There have been studies concerning the idea...

Again, while I am fairly certain that I cannot hope to debate against such great minds (and that's truth talking, not flattery!), I just wonder if I might be able to help try to bridge the gap from my side.

Thanks for your input! Help is what we need!

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

How do you sense the force? Is there some sort of trick to it? Or, like in Star Wars, is it only available to a select few... in which case, that sucks. Or, rather, shouldn't Midichlorians be observable?

I... do not know how to sense it. I have never yet tried either, there is an exercise in my Jedi Book that is supposed to, after much practice, let you sense something. Midichlorians are just inventions of George Lucas. I do not think that they exist. but if they did, they are parts of a cell, so you cant observe them. But to see a Force spectre you need to be able to sense the Force, like how only luke can see Obi-wan, because he can sense the Force. that sort of thing.

 

[Ulver]

Well only if our powers of observation are not adequate enough.. or we arent looking in the right places.

That can't be stressed enough. Science and Religion's drive to answer questions of "How" in general will never be perfect unless our abilities of observation are perfect... which is a goal that at right now seems unlikely to attain. Which is why being agnostic appeals to me.

I personally think there are supernatural elements in this world. Yet I don't think it's a matter of some "Magic" that is opposite of science. It's simply a matter of science that we are not able to explain yet because we don't have the understand and proper tools to discover it accurately.

np: Swans- Thug

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Physical always helps! But I'm really just looking for something that fits in with what science has to say on the matter. (Conciousness, etc., being chemical and electrical interactions in the brain).

I definately understand that! I don't think it can be objective otherwise.

According to the study ""The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind," it would appear that the body of archaeologocial and biological evidence lean toward suggesting that (until recently) the two hemispheres of the brain worked independently from one another. As I would imagine, this probably led to man feeling like he had 'voices in his head'.

I have not studied the study in depth, but I would imagine that this led the worship of the voices, which might have evolved into organized religion.

If I understand it correctly, the question of the soul became most hotly under debate when we began disussing quantum physics, which state that in order for anything to exist, it has to be observed by a conscious mind.

Therefore, a soul would have to be touched, seen or measured. Unfortunately, as we've been discussing, in non-esoteric terms it is impossible to do this. I honestly don't know if I'm interpreting this correctly, but the Bose-Einstein Condensate sounds fairly similar to that.

I was trying to leave any opinon out of this, but I noticed this and thought maybe I could offer some completely non-scientific suggestions

Also, if it is true all people have this reincarnating soul, why do only few people experience this unknowable knowledge?

Again, this is not fact, it is only my opinion, but since reincarnation wouldn't base itself on the time stream as we know it, perhaps this is due to that person not having been incarnated before. Then again, it could also be that the mind would have 'safety defense mechanisms' that might prevent the person from not experiencing the memories of a previous incarnation until they were able to handle it or deal with it. Since I'm not at all familiar enough with the concious versus unconcious mind, I probably shouldn't venture into that territory, though.

I'm still very scared about trying to tackle a subject I'm not sure if there's actual measureable proof for. Please be gentle with me!

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Could one sort of supernatural being be observable to another sort of supernatural being. or would they be supernatural to each other and so be unobservable.
after all supernatural only emplies, of of another nature to the norm.

Terry
_________________________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[Ahmadi]

That's the point of this thread. How is this invisible entity (soul) that affects how we make decisions, observable?

Well, all I can say is that it's not observable. I know of some people who have had experiences with the soul but it's all subjective evidence. I don't think I know of a way to personally experience the soul in a way that it is 'observable' ... personally experiencing God is another matter.

 

[meogi]

If I understand it correctly, the question of the soul became most hotly under debate when we began disussing quantum physics, which state that in order for anything to exist, it has to be observed by a conscious mind.

Therefore, a soul would have to be touched, seen or measured.

I'm still trying to connect 'conscious mind' to 'soul'. The soul is our conscious? (That word is really funny looking to me... it is 2am...) I'm contesting that our conscious is just chemicals and electrical impulses in our brain, following chemical laws. I guess it's possible to say that the soul is those laws, although, would that really be supernatural? It would seem the supernatural is just 'why?' then. Is the supernatural just purpose in disguise?

Then again, it could also be that the mind would have 'safety defense mechanisms' that might prevent the person from not experiencing the memories of a previous incarnation until they were able to handle it or deal with it.

You'd think there'd be a way to compare non-incarnation recalling people to incarnation recalling people, in order to locate this safety defence mechanism. But I don't think our powers of observation are developed enough yet... hopefully soon!

Interesting link btw... I'm not sure I fully understand it either. But I think a lot of wierd stuff happens at 0 Kelvins... something that stops light sounds fun though!

Could one sort of supernatural being be observable to another sort of supernatural being. or would they be supernatural to each other and so be unobservable.
after all supernatural only emplies, of of another nature to the norm.

Interesting... I honestly don't think so. But that doesn't stop people from believing that supernatural things interact with natural ones. Which is what I'm trying to figure out...

I don't think I know of a way to personally experience the soul in a way that it is 'observable' ... personally experiencing God is another matter.

I don't see any difference between them. Regardless, they both interact with the natural world.

 

[Ahmadi]

I don't see any difference between them. Regardless, they both interact with the natural world.

Hmm... Interesting... Is there evidence that the soul actually interacts (not just subjectively) with the natural world? ... please don't mind me for my lack of knowlege regarding such evidence.

 

[michel]

May I throw in my 5 cents' worth? - from a different angle altogether. Hasn't anyone here had a pet that has become fixated on one spot in the room ? - what do you all think the pet is doing?