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Brexit in a nutshell

Discussion in 'European Politics' started by TagliatelliMonster, Sep 13, 2019.

  1. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    I mostly agree but the conservatives have chosen the vote of the referendum to campaign on and this alone wine get them votes.
     
  2. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    I think most of these are based on assumptions. I see no reason why a united europe would for example mean the loss of individual cultures or diversity.

    As for democratic set-up, that's a question of set-up. I agree it's too abstract today and still too much of a political construct.

    As for the advantages...
    Business wise, it gives us a far larger target market.
    Internationally, it puts all of us in a much stronger position. Having to negotiate with Europe is tougher then having to negotiate with just a single country. It puts us in a far better position of engaging in competition with countries like China or the US. It also ensures more stability within europe. 2 members are far less likely to enter into conflict if they are part of a mutually beneficial common bigger picture as opposed to when they exist as isolated nations.

    Europe has a long history of violent conflict. It's far less likely to return if europe is united in a common goal.
    It used to be dictators who tried to unite europe by force (and indeed impose their own culture on the rest). A democratically united europe with respect to individual culture, where the members are part of the whole because they want to, is very very different from what we've had in the past.
     
  3. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Same as a United States of America I guess and ok if it was truly Democratic,the EU definitely isn't.
     
  4. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    Agree with all of this. Loss of individuality and cultures is a total red herring
    Even within the UK there are rivalries between towns Manchester/Liverpool; Newcastle/Sunderland; Glasgow/Edinburgh are prime examples; identity has not been lost.
     
  5. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Brexit is not about personalities. It is about the will of the people.

    Boris wishes to carry out the will of the people and I will continue to support him if he does not try to bring back Mrs May’s surrender treaty.
     
  6. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    One of your heroes, John Major did the same to cover up the MPs expenses scandal.
     
  7. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    Your fantasy world also has a strange perception of who my heroes are??? John Major !!!
     
  8. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    I have great sympathy for Chuka.

    He is going to have to do some gold medal winning mental gymnastics to justify his decision to join the loony Lib Dems.
     
  9. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    Why did you 'quote' my post. Your response ignores my post and sets off at a tangent.
    Don't quote if you can't answer or respond to the post.
     
  10. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Like it or not, you are all in the same bubble.

    You have nailed your colours to their mast.
     
  11. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    Why on earth do you think that is, in any way at all, a response to my post? Did you even read it before quoting it?

    Sorry but the people have never voted on no-deal vers. May's deal. Both are technically in line with the referendum result but neither are anything like what was actually promised by the leave campaign, so, like I said before, it's Boris the Liar who has no mandate from the people for what he's doing.

    If you had the slightest interest in the "will of the people" you'd be supporting another referendum on whatever the best deal is or remain - now that the facts are known.
     
  12. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    If you understood democracy, you would understand that another referendum is ludicrous until the current one has been enacted.

    A General Election is what is required and is what has been offered.
     
  13. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    :rolleyes:

    EU countries really want to inconvenience millions of their own citizens while also damaging their economies over a non-controversial issue with a simple solution that requires no negotiation, they have long acknowledged is a priority and that they have already agreed to.

    It's not an 'assumption' to note that a USoE vastly increases the scale and complexity of governance. Nor that it reduces diversity in decision making. Nor that reduction of diversity makes systems fragile as the scale of errors is magnified and 'firebreaks' are removed. Nor that lack of Europe wide public sphere means lack of democratic accountability with different countries living in significantly different political realities. Nor that centralising power incentivises lobbyists/special interest groups to influence legislation, etc.

    It's not just a case of 'set up', it is the fact that there inherently undemocratic consequences of a USoE.

    Lack of public sphere. Distance of government from people. Lack of influence of small countries. Diversity of countries/economies makes fair legislation difficult.

    A functioning democracy requires the existence of commonalities reinforced by a common public sphere, education, cultural identity, etc.

    This doesn't lead to the disappearance of cultures, just the gradual erosion. Also the places you mention have very similar cultures, just local pride (the same thing that leads to national pride which creates problems for USoE).

    This is why decentralised localism is better than abstract internationalism. Local identities are far more inclusive, and their diversity acts as a bulwark against nationalism, not an accelerant of it
     
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  14. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    Except you don't want it to just be enacted, do you? May's deal would (technically) enact the result. You can't get around the fact that it's actually impossible to deliver what was voted for, because it was a pack of lies.

    What you actually mean is "enact" it in the way you want it to happen.

    Go back to the people except not in any way in which you think they might tell us something you don't want? There is a big single issue problem and we should let the people vote on the reality, not the lies.

    Also, if Boris wasn't such a liar, we'd have had an election. Would you still be so keen on it being the solution if the LibDems win and cancel Brexit?
     
  15. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I don't understand what you mean to say here, so I will not comment.

    When it is a transparent tactic to threaten the sovereignity of the House of Commons, which is paramount to the authority of the Prime Minister (such as it is) as well as to the 2016 referendum (which is flawed is many ways and never had legal binding powers to begin with).

    As it turns out, rather easily these days. How the standards have fallen...

    Have you heard of the stunt double for a Prime Minister that is looking for a stunt double of his own for dangerous scenes... such as speaking for an audience in that dangerous place, Luxembourg?

    What about that party leader who is promising to deliver his own unemployment at the expense of the UK's viability and lies shamelessly about the laws and meaning of operating nationwide trade under WTO rules?

    I swear, I would be a lot more afraid of Brazil's public image after Dilma and Bolsonaro were it not for Trump and Brexit providing such excellent distractions.
     
    #175 LuisDantas, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  16. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I wish I could look at your face when you type such things.

    Can you possibly believe in their truth?
     
  17. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    So I hear from some people.

    The evidence has so far eluded me. On the contrary, all this Brexit talk led me to learn to appreciate the EU more.
     
  18. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    In other words: "I haven't made the slightest attempt to gain even a rudimentary understanding the topic I am discussing".

    A cursory googling would provide you with more scholarly literature than you could ever read, never mind writings for the general public such as this article from the bastion of alt-right, little Englander Europhobia: The Guardian.

    The shambles of Brexit diverts attention from the EU’s democratic deficit | Gary Younge
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Oh, I made the attempt, oh epithome of wisdom. And I will be enormously grateful if you attempt not to be so grossly presumptous and disrespectful towards me in the future. It reflects badly on you, very badly indeed. And I hate to call you on such transparent foolishness. It wastes my time and I won't have it back, you know.

    But the facts just aren't there to make my attempts worth the effort. You can't blame me for that.

    Hopefully you will decide to come back to me with a less flippant tone in the future so that I may listen to you.

    Looking forward to that time.
     
    #179 LuisDantas, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  20. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    :shrug:

    The democratic deficit has been a subject of scholarly debate and critique from right across the political spectrum for over 40 years. It's the kind of thing 1st year university students are told to write about as a gentle introduction to international politics, and also the kind of thing people do post-doc research on. It is not an obscure topic found only among the conspiratorial far-right that is so obviously ridiculous it can be dismissed practically out of hand.

    Even those who are ardently pro-EU and think the benefits vastly outweigh the problems often note that there are problems with democratic legitimacy/accountability that really need to be improved. That these same issues have existed for decades is a legitimate reason for people to wonder if they ever will, and is thus a legitimate, rational reason to oppose EU membership.

    They even created a TV station Euronews to try to address one of them (lack of public sphere) although with little success.

    You wouldn't listen anyway :D
     
    #180 Augustus, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
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