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BREXIT-DOA

Discussion in 'European Politics' started by Bob Jones, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Something else.
    Another aspect of the Brexit vote similar to the presidential race in the USA was the degree to which polls influenced behavior.
    Clinton was heavily favored, as was Remain. As a result, lots of people didn't bother voting believing that the rest of the electorate would see to it that good sense reigned.

    Both were very low turnout referendums. OOPS! A major take away lesson is "Don't assume that other people will handle your responsibility to vote, do it yourself."
    Tom
     
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  2. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Prior to the EU referendum in June 2016, the government sent a leaflet to every household in the UK that stated very plainly – “This is your chance to decide your own future and the future of the United Kingdom. It is important that you vote”

    This is that leaflet - Why the government believes that voting to remain in the EU is the best decision for the UK - with references

    We read that leaflet and exercised our democratic right to vote as the government asked us to do and now we are faced with a parliament determined to remove that right.
     
  3. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    So nobody watched the TV, looked at social media, or took any notice at all of what Leave were promising if they voted for it?

    Explain to me how asking the people again because the information provided last time was totally inaccurate and election law was broken, taking away anybody's rights?

    BS Boris seem perfectly happy to "take it to the people" in a GE, which could distort a 30% vote into a majority in our undemocratic FPtP voting system but (like all leavers) seems scared of a genuine, democratic return to the people.
     
  4. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    That leaflet cost the taxpayer an awful lot of money so that focused our minds.

    Not everyone watches TV or has access to social media. Many never read a newspaper but that leaflet was forced through our letterboxes whether we wanted it or not.

    EU referendum: £9m cost of taxpayer-funded leaflet warning about the 'damage' of Brexit angers Eurosceptics

    Both the Remain and Leave campaigns will each be able to spend £7million of taxpayers’ money during the official campaign period before the referendum.

    However, because the Government and each individual political party is able to spend money on the campaign, it means that the total Remain spend will be £26.6million – compared to just £11.7million for the Leave campaign.
     
  5. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    I'm aware of that - but it really doesn't matter very much to the point, unless you are seriously going to suggest that the numbers who do watch TV, read newspapers, use social media, and so on, where insignificant in the vote to leave.....?

    The fact is that it was sold with inaccurate information and the Leave campaign did break electoral law.
     
  6. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Presumably a Europe united around an economic community rather than a political union with the stated goal of 'ever closer union' (i.e. the gradual erosion of national sovereignty in favour of centralisation).

    The grand political projects tend to be the parts of the EU that are unpopular, and driven more by ideology and political elites than popular support: Euro, expansion of free movement, European Constitution, etc.

    In the long-run it will likely be what does for the EU imo
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Low turnout? Huge turnout of 72.2 per cent for EU referendum with 33.6 million voting

    'Britons turned out in huge numbers to vote on their future in the European Union, with 72.2 per cent of registered voters casting their ballots in Thursday's referendum, the Electoral Commission said.'
     
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  8. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    My apologies for misremembering, or reading some misleading article. I didn't really care, at the time.
    My attention was kinda dominated by Trump taking office when the electorate clearly voted for someone else.

    But isn't it still a bit of a problem when 52% of 72% of Brits vote for something as vague and crucial as Brexit, when nobody could say what it meant? Except that there would be an extra £300 million pounds/week to fund health care?

    Please don't misunderstand me, I have no dog in this fight. If anything, I expect Brexit to benefit the USA because UK will have to give us better trade deals.

    Not that I have any particular interest in haggis or Aston Martins.

    Tom
     
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  9. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    A vote is carried out under whatever conditions were stated beforehand though.

    For major, irreversible changes then it can certainly be argued that a qualified majority should be needed, but this wasn't the case in this referendum which was simple majority.

    People also generally don't know what voting for any politician will mean in the long run, and it's not like politicians generally present honest and unbiased arguments. We can't take it back if we don't like them though.

    In this case it was hard to know what it meant form either side, especially when you look at longer timeframes. Most predictions from either side were just made up largely out of thin air, and no one can say what it will be like in 5-10 years or if the UK will be better or worse off.

    We might as well read a horoscope as listen to a long term economic forecast, actually the horoscope would probably be better as we would be less likely to take it seriously :D

    So everyone was voting blind, but they knew that before they held the referendum.
     
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  10. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    The fact is that Remoaners are sore losers.
     
  11. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    Name calling, rather than reasoning. Ho hum....
     
  12. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Reasoning does not work with Remoaners. They are allergic to it.
     
  13. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    How would you know? How about starting with answering my question about how the UK being in the EU has so negatively affected you, in a practical, down-to-earth way, that it's worth all the risks of a no-deal (real people's jobs or even health or lives, trouble in NI again, the break up of the UK...) to be rid of?

    Or how will your life improve when/if we leave? If you switched off all news sources, assumed none of the negative impacts would happen, and just pretended that we'd left, how could you tell the difference?
     
  14. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Those that want to be controlled by a foreign power should relocate to a country that has already submitted instead of trying to overturn democracy in the UK.
     
  15. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    1. Avoidance of my questions (yet again) noted.

    2. The EU (so long as we remain a member) is not a foreign power.

    3. It is Boris the Liar who is trying to overturn democracy in this country. Parliament was chosen by the people, unlike either Boris the Liar or no-deal.
     
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  16. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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  17. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    Still not answering the questions.....
     
  18. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Try doing your own research.

    The Brexit Party understand the will of the people.

     
  19. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    I have done - that's why I want to remain.

    Come on, you think leaving the EU is so important that you're prepared to risk real people's jobs and a host of other problems including the possible break up of the country, renewed violence in NI, you're using terms like "traitor", "quisling", and "surrender", and yet you can't name a single, practical way in which being in the EU has made your life worse, or a way in which you expect it to get better if we leave?

    You're very good at regurgitating propaganda and slogans but I'm looking for some hint that you've actually thought about this for yourself.
     
  20. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    I think a lot of Leavers just hate immigrants, has a lot to do with it IMHO
     
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