Brainwashing

[Magic Man]

In another thread, Christine and Ringer wrote:

If Christians were truly brainwashed, then there wouldn't much of leaving the faith, but as I have seen here and in other places, there are a lot of people who have left the Christian faith for either a different faith or to no faith. (That point can be argued, I know. )

If Christianity and other religions brainwash people, then it can be said that anything a parent teaches can be called brainwashing. Is being taught to be polite (and to say please and thank you)a form of brainwashing? How about being told to wash your hands before you cook or eat? How about a father teaching his children about the basics of football or some other sport and watching and keeping up with favorite teams? And politics can be included to the list, too. In fact, school can be accused of brainwashing as well. Now, I am not saying that these things are brainwashing, I am saying that teaching of faith from parents to children isn't usually brainwashing either.

People seem to call it brainwashing when it deals with something they don't like. Yet, if it's something they don't mind, it's called educating. Either way, when the person grows up and is able to think on their own, they are responsible for their own beliefs regardless of what they were brainwashed/educated with during childhood.

I hope you two don't mind me using this. I didn't want to respond in the other thread since it was off-topic.

In response to Christine, not all Christians would be considered guilty of brainwashing. Even so, brainwashing doesn't guarantee that the brainwashed person will never overcome the brainwashing. I would also say that there are some children who are brainwashed into evangelical Christianity and leave for a less radical form of the religion. That goes along with your comments about people leaving for another faith.

The main thing is that, IMO, it's brainwashing when it's indoctrinated into teh child from birth as if it's the truth to the exclusion of any questioning. For instance, teaching children fundamentalism and that evolution is incorrect is an example of brainwashing because it's instilling in them the virtue of ignoring logic and reason despite what they might want in favor of what their parents tell them.

Many other things can be brainwashing, including atheism. It all depends on how it's done. For instance, my upbringing in Catholicism bordered on brainwashing, going through Catholic school and going to church every week, etc. However, I was also allowed to think for myself. I was allowed to question, and my parents encouraged me to do these things. That's what made it not brainwashing to me.

That's about all I have for now. Any thoughts?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain the term "brainwashing" implies that a person must have a prior set of beliefs. Children do not have a prior set of beliefs to be coerced into changing, so "indoctrination" would be the correct term to use.

What separates indoctrination from education, is that indoctriation is generally biased toward one view and is expected not to be questioned or critically examined. Therefore, indoctrination would apply to many religious households with children.

 

[linwood]

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain the term "brainwashing" implies that a person must have a prior set of beliefs. Children do not have a prior set of beliefs to be coerced into changing, so "indoctrination" would be the correct term to use.

What separates indoctrination from education, is that indoctriation is generally biased toward one view and is expected not to be questioned or critically examined. Therefore, indoctrination would apply to many religious households with children.

Well said.

I agree with your entire post.

 

[Caladan]

Many other things can be brainwashing, including atheism.

I think that's the important point here. there are many backgrounds and environments to grow up in and experience. but at the end of the day, when a person arrives at a certain age, they will have to develop their own distinct world view. Christianity is one piece in the social landscape, and it comes in many flavors, many im sure can be described as brainwashing. but we are going to have to agree upon one specific image for Christianity to claim that Christianity is Brainwashing.. which is impossible.

 

[Magic Man]

Hey, Caladan, would you mind changing the thread title to just "Brainwashing"? I think it would be more appropriate.

 

[Magic Man]

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain the term "brainwashing" implies that a person must have a prior set of beliefs. Children do not have a prior set of beliefs to be coerced into changing, so "indoctrination" would be the correct term to use.

What separates indoctrination from education, is that indoctriation is generally biased toward one view and is expected not to be questioned or critically examined. Therefore, indoctrination would apply to many religious households with children.

Well, I don't think of it as requiring a set of beliefs to change, but that's a minor quibble, I think. Whether you call it "brainwashing" or "indoctrination", I think you're correct.

I wonder whether others have the same requirement of brainwashing (having to change a set of beliefs, that is).

 

[Caladan]

Hey, Caladan, would you mind changing the thread title to just "Brainwashing"? I think it would be more appropriate.

Done

 

[Magic Man]

Thank you, sir.

 

[Mister Emu]

You're being loose with the word brainwashing... Brainwashing implies a prior idea/belief to "wash" from the brain, and it also implies that the "re-education" is against the will of the participant...

Do you think bringing up a child in a religion is wrong?

 

[IF_u_knew]

Brainwashing is teaching a child anything that is not common sense. I do not raise my children with any set of beliefs... they know there is a G.d by their own reasonings (they are quite intelligent little guys ). I allow them to learn through appropriate experiences while CAREFULLY guiding them through..

Still, however, even a brainwashed child (as I was), upon reaching a certain point can easily decide for themselves how much it is worth to them to find the Truth and to shed the lies.

Sadly, many choose to hold onto their security blankets. :faint:At that point, it is their own fault for maintaining false and damaging beliefs and they no longer can innocently blame those who have raised them.

 

[3.14]

brainwashing is making a child ask no more qeustions about something that you yourself are not certain of

 

[blackout]

Brainwashing is teaching a child anything that is not common sense.

Even "common" sense can be indoctrination/brainwashing/coersion of thought & belief.

I rather think UNCOMMON Sense is the most revelational & wonder-full way to go.
(that would be YOUR 'sense'....instead of the "mass" sense-ability)

But certainly most people would say I'm wrong.
(being as it doesn't con-form to the 'common' 'sense')

 

[IF_u_knew]

Even "common" sense can be indoctrination/brainwashing/coersion of thought & belief.

I rather think UNCOMMON Sense is the most revelational & wonder-full way to go.
(that would be YOUR 'sense'....instead of the "mass" sense-ability)

But certainly most people would say I'm wrong.

Oh please! Share your meaning.. I would like to hear. You have peaked my interest with this declaration.

In a sense, I do agree with you; though perhaps it could be different in what you are trying to convey (???). For instance, my kids will come home with some bit of "knowlege" they have learned in school.. well..

Example: We were sitting outside and looking at the night sky and my older son started telling me about the moon... such as, there is a flag up there and what the landscape is.. ya know, typical stuff we are told.

I take those opportunities to challenge them with "how do you know?" What I never want to teach them is to take someone else's word for anything. Listen and accept what you know to be true and just keep in mind what you can not prove.. just don't subscribe to it dogmatically. That was what I was being taught growing up .. "it is *this* way because it just is".. which seemed wrong to me. Unless I KNOW, I can not accept as a fact... I just store it away; keep it in mind, considering it.. nothing more until I know.

Is that what you mean?

And I will not take place in telling you that you are wrong. I can relate as I am often told the same thing even on things that ARE truly basic common sense issues.. my personal philosophy (even where my children are concerned).. you never have to take my word for it. :no: What is truth will be truth with or without my approval.

 

[blackout]

I find alot of the stuff my kids come home with from school
a subtle form of indoctrination/brainwashing.

I simply un-do it by discussing what I see there.
Discussing the "closed" nature of what they are presenting.
We find many OTHER possibilities where they have presented
a limited or even misleading notion...
or simply a subtly (re)in-forced "way of thinking"...
that is never even directly discussed.
For ex...making room for only ONE correct 'answer'.
which of course is the one THEY are providing.
Look for the answer in the text book. right?
That notion is an indoctrinational one right there.
(and to me, not so subtle... and very effective 'on the whole'.)

I have yet to detect any probing discussion of anything social going on there.
All of the "social"/health/community education they recieve there
is HIGHLY indoctrinational in nature.
(and "exclusionary" without any question)

We all go like this together...
My children have good sense-abilities...
and a good sense of humor.

The "system" may consider us "behind"
but even THAT is a form of indoctrinal thought.
This whole "keeping up with a constructed *standard* thing".
Almost everything in our societal life experience is ARBITRARY/constructed.
Yet we are taught to see it as some "solid" objective thing.

This notion ALONE is an in-doctrination of thought.

*sigh*. I think I will never get at what I'm trying to say.:areyoucra
oh well. I tried. :cover:

 

[blackout]

Oh... and I'm not even talking about church and religion and all...
because we don't participate.

 

[dawny0826]

Brainwashing is teaching a child anything that is not common sense. I do not raise my children with any set of beliefs... they know there is a G.d by their own reasonings (they are quite intelligent little guys ). I allow them to learn through appropriate experiences while CAREFULLY guiding them through..

Still, however, even a brainwashed child (as I was), upon reaching a certain point can easily decide for themselves how much it is worth to them to find the Truth and to shed the lies.

Sadly, many choose to hold onto their security blankets. :faint:At that point, it is their own fault for maintaining false and damaging beliefs and they no longer can innocently blame those who have raised them.

I concur. I'm apprehensive to label my childhood experiences as "brainwashing" but the matriachs in my family have always been strictly conservative and it wasn't until I was in my teens, that I was able to question their beliefs to make sense of everything.

I rebelled. A lot. But just as you mention, there came a time in my life, when despite the way I was brought up, I worked through and determined my own world view.

If I chose to blindly follow the belief system of Mom, Granny & Dad, without establishing my own, I'd have no one to blame but myself.

 

[blackout]

If I chose to blindly follow the belief system of Mom, Granny & Dad, without establishing my own, I'd have no one to blame but myself.

But sadly "Mom, Granny & Dad" can make their kids lives (and their own)
so MISERABLE when the children establish their own
independent way of understanding life....
outside the belief system indoctrinated in the formational years.

Independent thought is punished more often in this world
then it is exhaulted or even appreciated.

Everyone's busy applying pressure to con-form to some standard or another.

oh well. c'est la vie.

 

[IF_u_knew]

*sigh*. I think I will never get at what I'm trying to say.:areyoucra
oh well. I tried. :cover:

I understood what you meant perfectly and I concur. :yes: When I say common sense, I mean.. you experience and you learn from that experience... then you apply that knowledge to your interactions with others as well.

Encouraging your children to not settle for the "standards of society" (particularly in our society) is not wrong. As long as they are respectful to those around them, they should never settle on an idea or "belief" (whether religious or otherwise) just because they are told that it is a fact.

My son wants to be an astronaut (my cousins work for NASA.. which is where they get the interest), so to encourage it, I do not let them limit themselves to the knowledge of others. How do we know for sure that the moon is as they say it is... until we have set foot on it.. (especially in today's age), you just can't say for sure. Or how do I know that Ireland is really as beautiful as the pictures.. could be even more so... on and on... I encourage their productive curiosities and not to settle for other's tales. Just the experience alone could be different than someone else's experience.

I do think there is much that our kids are being jaded on.. they are bored with life because everyone has the attitude, "been there, done that." That is so far from my attitude and so I cultivate that same thirst for knowledge and experience in them... I just guide it as a good parent should.

 

[IF_u_knew]

I concur. I'm apprehensive to label my childhood experiences as "brainwashing" but the matriachs in my family have always been strictly conservative and it wasn't until I was in my teens, that I was able to question their beliefs to make sense of everything.

I rebelled. A lot. But just as you mention, there came a time in my life, when despite the way I brought up, I worked through and determined my world view.

If I chose to blindly follow the belief system of Mom, Granny & Dad, without establishing my own, I'd have no one to blame but myself.

Yes, I will admit that one of my weaknesses is that I have little tolerance in listening to adults putting blame on anyone.. especially their parents. I grew up in the baptist religion (hardcore.. school/church/activities, etc)... but I put on my big girl suit when I was old enough and shed the teaching to find the Truth. In fact, I thank my parents for all they did for me. I have much respect for them and though I referred to it as brainwashing.. I do not honestly consider it to be so. I am actually grateful for it because being so stubborn and obstinate, had the Word of G.d not been in front of me constantly, I may have erred further than I did upon "escaping." haha

I gained much strength in using my intelligence to questions despite the often overwhelming opposition I received (*never* from my parents.. always by the church/school folks). I take each and every challenge and draw from it and run with what I learn... and this is my main objective in teaching my sons.

Really.. all parents can be accused of brainwashing in some shape or form.. I am looked down upon by some for not celebrating christmas, easter, and other such holidays... but we have traditions and some may look on those as brainwashing. Bottom line.. G.d puts them into the right hands despite the objections others may have. And yes, I stick by that even in extreme cases.

 

[Magic Man]

You're being loose with the word brainwashing... Brainwashing implies a prior idea/belief to "wash" from the brain, and it also implies that the "re-education" is against the will of the participant...

See, I can understand that, but I think the term can fit here, too. Of course, I think in these cases, it is against the will of the children.

Do you think bringing up a child in a religion is wrong?

No. I think bringing a child up in a religion or any philosophy while teaching them emphatically that all other religions and philosophies are wrong and to be avoided and looked down upon.