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Brahman and Monotheism

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thank you so much for your helpful answers! I am learning a lot. I am a Christian but I am trying to learn and understand others beliefs.
I have a few more questions. Has anybody ever done 'dharma to perfection so that they avoid the punishment?
Thanks again for your great help!
There is no 'punishment'. There is only the natural result of action -- karma.

If I'm building a wall and drop a cinder block on my foot, my broken foot it not a punishment, just the natural result of wrong-action.
If I murder my neighbor, my spiritual retardation is not a punishment, again, just the natural result of wrong-action.

No judgement involved in either case, just simple physics. The mechanism of the crushed foot may be more obvious to us than the mechanism of murder related harm, but they are the same, non-judgemental, automatic mechanisms.

Dharma is the blueprint for your life. It's the actions that will bring optimum, personal, spiritual progress. It's inborn and individual.
Scripture and tradition may outline some general principles, but each individual has his own dharma, which may vary considerably from the general trends.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What do you believe about the origin of the earth? As a Christian I believe by faith the creation account since I was not their. I think you can make some argument about different things but ultimately as you said I do not have enough verifiable evidence because I was not an eyewitness. How do you reconcile this concept of seeing firsthand with your belief of origins.

your asking my view of this based on comparative beliefs of your beliefs and the facts of science. Yes this line of dialogue is marginal in this section of the forum, and has been addressed many times in more appropriate sections of the forum, but nonetheless my response nor the facts of science will not change regardless where and when I respond, as a comparison to your beliefs. As far as beliefs go the view of my belief in the Baha'i Faith is the harmony and consistency between science and religious beliefs.

The objections of not being there is not coherent simply based the nature of objective verifiable evidence.

Nothing in science is first hand except for an experiment done in the now, and the experiments and observations in the history of humanity can simply be repeated and the results are always basically the same. We are not there in any way beyond the present moment. Science is based on predictability of processes in the past, and the future, and at present all the evidence known based on consistent and predictive success of the methods of science.

For example: The tree stumps and roots, mud cracks, leaf impressions,worm tracks, and raindrop marks found in the lamella layers in repeated layers of shale found hundreds of feet below the surface of the earth sis not form any different than those observed forming in musd today.

Another important observation throughout the history of the earth is weathering and deposition of the rocks of the earth. We can directly observe this gradual weathering and breakdown over time today as mountains gradually break down and the sediments from these mountains form the river, lake, and ocean deposits gradually over time. We can see evidence of the same gradual weathering and depositions in the rocks for many thousands of feet of cyclic deposits, as well as vast limestone deposits that cannot be formed any other way but gradual carbonate deposition in shallow seas like we observe in seas like around Bermuda, ocean islands and the Great Barrier Reef.

There is absolutely no evidence of any significant change in these natural processes nor time itself are different now than in the past billions of years of earth's history.

You may refer to one of the many threads that have addressed this question in the past, or start a thread to further discuss this.

The subject of this thread is Brahman and monotheism. Second thought I will cut and past this post, and start a thread in Science and Religion, since it is a more appropriate place for this dialogue
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So if Brahman has absolutely no emotions how as a human can I relate to him? Is that a possibility?
Brahman isn't a person. Brahman is a featureless field of potentiality underlying reality. It has no qualities or aspects recognizable from our 3rd-state perspective, This makes it extremely hard to talk about -- and annoys us no end.

Unlike the Buddhists, we Hindus seem to have a pathological need to discuss it; to discuss the ineffable (we probably need therapy :confused:).
This is why we personify it or add features -- just to put a handle on it. We ramify it into countless aspects, even personifying it into deities.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh no! the last thing that reflects the reality of our world is the diverse conflicting beliefs of the religions over the millennia that each claim they have the 'objective truth.' Fortunately science does not make this claim and it is more consistent, comprehensible than the conflicting claims, and is a changing evolving knowledge of reality. .

Unless you can consider the religions and belief systems of the world an evolving spiritual knowledge of the world.
The diverse, conflicting beliefs of religions do not reflect the reality of our world; science does -- to the best of our ability.
Religion abhors questioning, investigation and hypothesis-testing. It abhors the scientific method. It's faith, not knowledge-based, and discourages any investigation that might threaten doctrine.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The diverse, conflicting beliefs of religions do not reflect the reality of our world; science does -- to the best of our ability.

True.

Religion abhors questioning, investigation and hypothesis-testing. It abhors the scientific method. It's faith, not knowledge-based, and discourages any investigation that might threaten doctrine.

The Baha'i Faith does not follow this stereotype.
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
The Baha'i Faith does not follow this stereotype.

Actually the RigVeda - arguably composed around the time of the Torah (~3000 - 3500 years ago) touches on this:

iyáṃ vísr̥ṣṭir yáta ābabhū́va
yádi vā dadhé yádi vā ná
yó asyā́dhyakṣaḥ paramé víoman
só aṅgá veda yádi vā ná véda


Whence all creation had its origin,
the creator, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
the creator, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows — or maybe even he does not know.

It is interesting - that there is doubt as to the existence of a "creator" who created the universe
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Actually the RigVeda - arguably composed around the time of the Torah (~3000 - 3500 years ago) touches on this:

iyáṃ vísr̥ṣṭir yáta ābabhū́va
yádi vā dadhé yádi vā ná
yó asyā́dhyakṣaḥ paramé víoman
só aṅgá veda yádi vā ná véda

Whence all creation had its origin,
the creator, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
the creator, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows — or maybe even he does not know.

It is interesting - that there is doubt as to the existence of a "creator" who created the universe

Even though I believe in God and science, doubt is justified, because of the lack of evidence and diverse conflicting cultural paradigms that assert their God from a fallible human perspective.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. that each claim they have the 'objective truth.'
Unless you can consider the religions and belief systems of the world an evolving spiritual knowledge of the world.
How could not they have objective truth, since they are 'manifestations' (what does that mean? An avatara? A mirror image?) of Allah? And they have the vision of a 'Maid of Heaven' to prove it.
Evolving? What evolution has been seen, other than the status of the person the name of the mission has been changed. Once it was a prophet, then son, then a messenger, and lately a mahdi or a manifestation? Is that what you mean by evolution? The same snake-oil in a new bottle!
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How could not they have objective truth, since they are 'manifestations' (what does that mean? An avatara? A mirror image?) of Allah? And they have the vision of a 'Maid of Heaven' to prove it.
Evolving? What evolution has been seen, other than the status of the person the name of the mission has been changed. Once it was a prophet, then son, then a messenger, and lately a mahdi or a manifestation? Is that what you mean by evolution? The same snake-oil in a new bottle!

As far as what is evolution no, and not the subject of the thread.

The problem is your wording from a hostile source and selective use of words to justify your agenda. Yes the words of the Manifestation of God, ie Jesus and Baha'u'llah they are mirrors of the attributes of God, but no, they personally are not a 'Mirror image of God.'
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Actually the RigVeda - arguably composed around the time of the Torah (~3000 - 3500 years ago) touches on this:

"iyáṃ vísr̥iṣṭih yáta ābabhū́va, yádi vā dadhé yádi vā ná;
yó asya adhyakṣaḥ paramé vyoman, só aṅgá veda yádi vā ná véda

(Whence all creation had its origin, the creator, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not;
the creator, who surveys it all from highest heaven, he knows - or maybe even he does not know.)

It is interesting - that there is doubt as to the existence of a "creator" who created the universe
No doubt, Man. It is clear in the previous verse.

"ko addhā veda ka iha pravocat kuta ājātā kuta iyaṃvisṛiṣṭiḥ l
arvāg devā asya visarjanenāthā ko veda yata ababhūva ll"

(Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?)
Yes the words of the Manifestation of God, i.e., Jesus and Baha'u'llah they are mirrors of the attributes of God, ..
What proves that? What proves Allah or God? You are a man of science, Shunyadrqgon!
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
And towards the finis - a distinct departure from the Abrahamic texts as I know of them

Gita 18:63

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā
vimṛiśhyaitad aśheṣheṇa yathechchhasi tathā kuru

Thus, I have explained to you this knowledge that is more secret than all secrets. Ponder over it deeply, and then do as you wish.

(emphasis mine)
I don't see any difference with Abrahamic texts. Man has a free will. If man was a puppet without free will words like "Love your God..." would be meaningless.

... I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose... (Deuteronomy 30:19)

If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear. (Mark 4:23)
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
There is no 'punishment'. There is only the natural result of action -- karma.

If I'm building a wall and drop a cinder block on my foot, my broken foot it not a punishment, just the natural result of wrong-action.
If I murder my neighbor, my spiritual retardation is not a punishment, again, just the natural result of wrong-action.

No judgement involved in either case, just simple physics. The mechanism of the crushed foot may be more obvious to us than the mechanism of murder related harm, but they are the same, non-judgemental, automatic mechanisms.

Dharma is the blueprint for your life. It's the actions that will bring optimum, personal, spiritual progress. It's inborn and individual.
Scripture and tradition may outline some general principles, but each individual has his own dharma, which may vary considerably from the general trends.
Yes, there are natural consequences for actions governed by natural laws. What about moral actions?

I understand that positive intentions (chosen and made into deeds) ennoble the character in opposition to nnegative intentions... I also understand the need and logic of universal justice... But how does this automatically transfer to shaping the whole next incarnation? What or who is the programmer? Who is the lord of karma?
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
I don't see any difference with Abrahamic texts. Man has a free will. If man was a puppet without free will words like "Love your God..." would be meaningless.

... I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose... (Deuteronomy 30:19)

If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear. (Mark 4:23)
Exodus 20:3
You shall have no other gods before me.

Exodus 20:23
You are not to make any gods to rival Me; you are not to make for yourselves gods of silver or gold.

Exodus 34:14
For you must not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 5:7
You shall have no other gods before Me.

Deuteronomy 6:14
Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you.

Jeremiah 25:6
Do not follow other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands. Then I will do you no harm.'

Surah 3:85 from the Qu'ran
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Those sound like veiled threats to me - if someone were to actually tell me those things I would tell them exactly where to stick it - but we are derailing the OP
 
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PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Exodus 20:3
You shall have no other gods before me.

/... /

Those sound like veiled threats to me - if someone were to actually tell me those things I would tell them exactly where to stick it - but we are derailing the OP

Sorry for off topic. I thought the passage from Gita was about revealed knowledge (secrets) and actualization ... The verses you quoted from Bible mark the final turn to monotheism (Biblical Israelites several times flirted with polytheism/henotheism) ... Yes, the way it is put sounds authoritarian. Maybe the reflection of then society ...

Let me link this to original topic. YHWH doesn't allow worship of different (lesser) gods. I don't know how is that in different Hindu religious/philosophical schools. I suppose in theistic advaita Brahman with form can be worshiped in everything there is.
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
Sorry for off topic. I thought the passage from Gita was about revealed knowledge (secrets) and actualization ... The verses you quoted from Bible mark the final turn to monotheism (Biblical Israelites several times flirted with polytheism/henotheism) ... Yes, the way it is put sounds authoritarian. Maybe the reflection of then society ...

Let me link this to original topic. YHWH doesn't allow worship of different (lesser) gods. I don't know how is that in different Hindu religious/philosophical schools. I suppose in theistic advaita Brahman with form can be worshiped in everything there is.

The "revealed knowledge" is the way to attain the divine as supposed to have been narrated by the lord himself to his foremost devotee.... as I understand it - but then I am the first to admit that my understanding is biased by my reverence for Sri Krishna

Krishna goes a step further - he doesn't say do not worship other gods instead he says

Gita 7:22

sa tayā śhraddhayā yuktas tasyārādhanam īhate
labhate cha tataḥ kāmān mayaiva vihitān hi tān

Endowed with faith, the devotee worships a particular celestial god and obtains the objects of desire. But in reality I alone arrange these benefits.




Thank you for reasoned reply - see the underlined part (by me) in your answer - to me that is an indication, however subtle - that the time for that corpus of knowledge has or is passing us by. If the material is less relevant today then the trend will continue inexorably. On the other hand - to me personally - when I read the Gita - I am amazed at how timeless the instruction is.

Brahman with attributes is Sarguna Brahman - and again - to my way of understanding - it is so that we dumb humans can begin to comprehend a small piece of the unknowable and incomprehensible

I shall gracefully concede the floor to you at this point - thank you for reading my posts and answering them
 
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