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Featured Both fully God and fully man

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by LightofTruth, Aug 20, 2019.

  1. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    What's even more absurd is that the one mind of Jesus could ask his other mind questions. And sometimes get answers and other times not.

    The truth is much more simple and way more reasonable.
     
  2. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    I have another question
    If Jesus is a Spirit and God that indwelt the body and mind of a man, why would it be necessary that the Spirit of the Father (the Holy Spirit) be given to to Jesus?

    The answer seems to be that the Holy Spirit was only given to the man Jesus but not the Spirit God Jesus.

    This indicates that the man Jesus needed to be possessed of the Spirit of the Father God rather than being possessed by the Spirit of the Son God. Therefore, the Son God did not possess the man Jesus but was a distinct mind that needed the mind of the Father in order to do anything.
     
  3. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I nearly stopped reading at the end of this sentence.
    Religionists telling me that I don't think and that I don't understand religion, but they do, are really pretty aggravating and a waste of my time talking to.
    As a general rule.
    Try telling that to the religionists who commonly do.

    There's a myriad ways of saying it. "The Bible says..." is another one. Etc. Etc.

    How about instead of explaining this to me, you make your point to Prestor John, InChrist, Shia Muslim, or any of the legion of religionists who do support their opinions with some variation on "God says..."? They're the ones who actually do, instead of me who just objects to people doing it.
    Tom
     
  4. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Tom, I'm a 'religionist." A theist and a pretty 'true believing' one, at that, As one of those, if I tell you something that goes against your preconceived notions of what 'religiousnists' all do, you can no longer throw out the generalizations of 'religionists all do this or say that..." I am not unique...or even all that rare in my ideas. As well, since you seem to be telling me that 'religionists' don't think past their own indoctrinations, I can certainly reply in kind. I have found that, as you just mentioned when you 'dearly stopped reading at the end of this sentence,' some people genuinely do NOT think past their personal convictions.

    And I did mention 'the Bible says,' in my response. Did you miss that?

    Tell me: how is it that you can spread your generalizations from 'the religionists who commonly do' to ALL religionists do," but I can't let you know that I run across non-believers and anti-theists who simply do not bother to think things through if the concept being presented MIGHT mess with their world view?

    But I'll say this again: "The Bible Says...." means that the version of the Bible being quoted, as interpreted by the reader, says something. That's not the same thing as "God Says....

    As to telling anything to 'religionists who commonly do..." Why should I be responsible for what anybody else thinks or says? Are you responsible for everything every non-believer thinks or believes? Remember: my own religious group is pretty far away from being Orthodox...or orthodox (small 'o') It's not even Protestant. We are 'restorationists.' RF gets the hierarchy right with us. That means we disagree with pretty much everybody, and except that I AM a 'religionist,' (theist) you can't hold ME accountable for what any other theist claims.
     
  5. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Yes I know you're a Mormon religionist.

    So, let me cut to the chase. Lots of Mormons, from CNorman to Prestor John, have told me that I am the problem because I have been married to the same guy for over 25 years(his birthday was yesterday Aug 20). That's just here on RF.

    Why don't you put as many posts into telling them that they're wrong as you have me? Why do you keep talking about and to me? When did you last contradict Prestor John?
    Tom
     
  6. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen any posts from either CNormon or Prestor John. You sure they post here, and that they are LDS?

    OK, never mind. Found Prestor John...though I've honestly never seen his posts, as I remember.

    Unless he's one of the guys arguing for young earth creationism? I honestly don't remember. Forgive me for that.

    CNorman doesn't show up on a member search and I sure don't remember discussing anything with him.

    I do tend to argue with robocop frequently, though, don't I?

    Hmnn.
     
    #46 dianaiad, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  7. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    I like your post. Thank you for that. Just a few comments on that.

    One cannot be fully God and fully man at the same time. That just doesnt make sense. It's almost like a Greek God myths of old, like Zeus and Pluto, etc, or whoever. There was two wills, God's will and Jesus's will. Jesus always did his father's will. Never what he wanted to do. Because Jesus came in his father's name.

    Plus, the Godhead is explained in 1 Cor 11v3, every simple to understand. "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." I look at these verses and think, how can you put a trinitarian God into that.

    And that writter who says that Jesus has two minds and two wills? Ugghhhh.........

    But anyhow, thanks for the post!!
     
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  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well that's not really an argument. "how could any reasonable person believe such nonsense?" is an arbitrary question. I don't think it's relevant.

    As for me, I am perfectly satisfied in believing what I do. I have no doubt about it at all.
    Jesus spoke by the mind of God --as you call it-- through the gift of prophecy. He wasn't switching minds back and forth like some kind of alter ego. All the prophets were filled with the holy Spirit and so were able to speak the messages God gave them.

    But, Jesus had a greater gift of prophecy than previous prophets. Because as John the baptist points out the Spirit was given to Jesus without measure. (John 3:34) Basically, Jesus had all the gifts of the previous prophets and without any limit.
    When the holy Spirit descended like a dove on Jesus it was to anoint Him so He could be the "Messiah" which means anointed one. God is omnipresent and can send His Spirit out. This is not an issue.

    As for your confusion about the Spirit of the Father vs. the Spirit of the Son. That doesn't really make sense. God is only one and one Spirit. There are no separate spirits for Father and Son. So that's all unnecessary confusion brought on by the trinity doctrine.

    BTW, not even trinitarians believe the Father and Son have separate Spirits. They believe they are "distinct" persons but one in "essence". I don't believe even that. I believe God is one person, one essence and was simply manifesting Himself in different ways.

    So to make it more easily understood; God sent His Spirit to indwell a human body at birth. Then, once He was baptized; God sent His Spirit again to anoint Him for the ministry He was going to do. Same Spirit, but omnipresent. Sent two times.
     
  9. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    So when Jesus prayed to the Father, he was praying to himself? If Jesus was just a manifestation of the Father then that must be true. But does it make sense that he would prau to himself?
     
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, indeed. He had to live by faith like the rest of us. He is the Savior of humanity. It behooved Him to be made like His brethren in all respects. Even tempted like us. He is the "second Adam" and the promised seed of Abraham.

    This is why Jesus took on human form and this is why He took all power in heaven and earth in human form. To save humanity through the power He had promised to Himself. So, to put it simply. God in times past promised all power in heaven and earth to a human being. This human being would be the Savior of all humanity. However, God made this promise; knowing that He Himself would come in human form to take the power and by doing so; redeem all those who believed in Him through that power.

    Because Jesus is given all power in heaven and in earth only after the crucifixion through the resurrection. So that He can save humanity and reconcile them to the Father.

    Hebrews 2:16-18
    For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    So, now Jesus sits on the right hand waiting until all of humanities enemies are put under His human feet. He does this for us, by becoming Human; He makes our enemies His enemies. And so they will be defeated for us.

    Once Jesus mission is accomplished and He has redeemed a spiritual nation who is the Bride of Christ and He has washed them in His own blood and cleansed away all guilt. And this nation is perfect in every way. Then He will present them unto the Father as a redeemed and worthy people and He will be at their head as the "Son of man" and "head of the body".

    This will mean that the whole body and head of the body will be the temple of God forever. A fitting abode and place able to give rest to the Father. Because God is love and God rests in His love as it is written in Zephaniah 3:17.

    So this was the purpose of creation and redemption. To make God a fitting resting place which is His holy nation and is also called the new Jerusalem.

    Because no physical temple could ever give rest to this God. Even the heavens of the heavens cannot contain Him. But this new Jerusalem will satisfy His desire to love and so He will rest. Which is the 7th day that is coming. The true Sabbath of God. And so God wants people to join in His rest. Which is joy unspeakable and full of glory as it is written.
     
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It should come at no surprise. After all, in Romans 8:26 we see the holy Spirit prays for us (whoever has the holy Spirit that is) with groanings that cannot be uttered. So God constantly prays to Himself in countless people filled with the holy Spirit. And it's no surprise that Jesus therefore is God and yet prayed to God.
     
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    God didn't become something other than God. Jesus is fully God and fully human.

    How could you be so sure, when the majority of biblical experts and scholars think otherwise?

    In the Xtian definition, God is also imminent. Who died and gave you the authority to decide what definition is "most fitting?"
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Wait... God and Jesus "entirely separate?" How do you reconcile that with "The Father and I are One?"
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    ...aaaaand then there's John 1.
    There's the resurrection problem.
    There's Thomas' exclamation.
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Except that's not the Trinitarian idea. "Let the SAME mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus." I don't think this is a dualistic argument.
     
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  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    It is, actually.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    LOL...these days they would hospitalize him and treat him for multiple personality disorder....:p
     
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  18. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    The same way one reconciles this:

    John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    So...He says that "the Father and I are One." And then He explains what that means. Evidently it doesn't mean what you think it means. Unless you think that the entire human race is of 'one substance' with Deity? Or can be? Or something?

    Certainly viewing it the way I do allows me to reconcile all the verses in the NT that talk about being 'one' with the Father...as well as all the verses which have Jesus having conversations with His Father, and at the end of His life, asking God the Father why He (the Father) had 'forsaken' Him (Jesus).

    To us, it's no problem at all. It only becomes one with Trinitarians and Modalists. Oh, and Modalists who think they are really Trinitarians.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    None of that sounds entirely separate, though. It sounds like there is great unity.
     
  20. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    It depends on which Trinitarian idea you're talking about. There are many.
     
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