• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Book Review: *GENESIS versus DARWINISM...* by Desmond Ford PhD, MSU

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Book Review: GENESIS versus DARWINISM: The case for God in a scientific world
by Desmond Ford PhD, MSU PhD, Manchester

Genesis versus Darwinism: The case for God in a scientific world

I'm giving a review plus sample quotes from the book.

Overall this is a Creationist book but of a different stripe than what I am used to seeing. It is both a theological work with a particular spin on Genesis and a review of the state of the current Creation vs Evolution disagreement. He discusses a lot of history of the dispute surrounding the Institute for Creation Research and overturns its accusations against Science through bad reasoning and through obscurring facts about geology, completely dismissing Henry Morris. He distances Creationism from all of the chicanery of The Genesis Flood and the circuit-rider creationists. He produces his own claim in its place that Evolution doesn't, to him, make sense or pass his inspection and works out his own scheme. He also discusses a Genesis that is literary rather than literal. You could say he's moving the goalposts of the conversation about Creationism vs Darwinism, so that while the public is still trying to deal with nips and slanders by ICR it now has a new surprise visitor standing behind it. What this book represents is an evolution in the Creationist's argument toolkit for some. I think we will be seeing more of this kind of creationist while the Henry Morris type fades, so collectors hurry up and buy up any used copies of the Genesis Flood. Its a collector's item.

On page 104 he dismisses Morris's book "...the authors of The Genesis Flood have written on the basis of their belief in the Holy Scriptures as the reliable Word of God. This belief I share. Second, it is my sincere conviction that it is a fundamental and extremely dangerous mistake to think that our belief in the reliable Word of God could ever be based on or strengthened by so-called scientific reasoning." new paragraph "Writing a book with such significant claims or conclusions requires a thorough knowledge of the geological sciences and their principles. Neither author--one a theologian, the other a civil engineer, is a geologist. Everybody knows that in the present state of scientific development it is practically impossible for one person to master more than one branch of science...."

page 105 "The actual situation is that the geological time-scale is based on a factual superposition of rocks yielding a factual superposition of paleontological criteria, which has been proved to be the same all over the world."

page 145 he comments about properly interpreting Genesis 1: "Most of all we have never known an omnipotent God, who is an omnipresent Spirit, to use vocal cords and condescend to the activities of a surgeon, a gardener, a walker and a seamstress. But all these are to be found in Genesis chapters 1-3. God is a spirit according to John 4:24. The second commandment implies that. Therefore he has no vocal chords or physical parts such as we know--hands, feet, buttocks, etc."

page 236 concerning Paleontology "Despite the bright promise of paleontology providing a means of 'seeing' evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most significant of which is the presence of 'gaps' in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediaries between species, and paleontology does not provide them."

page 305 "At first we may feel disconcerted by the idea that the Bible could omit so much of human history. Surely it would be good to know more about the Neanderthals and the Cro-Magnons. We forget so easily that early populations were considerably less than a fragment of one percent of today's population. Have we fully understood the way in which Christ concentrated the history of many centuries into a story of just nine verses?..."
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
If this is the same Australian theologian I know of, he is a friend of my family, and a longstanding member of the fringe liberal side of the Seventh Day Adventist church, he is a strong proponent of righteousness by faith (a la Paul) than righteousness by works (a la Jesus??) something I disagree with strongly. My father is a research Microbiologist in the Seventh Day Adventist churches Loma Linda University and Medical Centre in Loma Linda CA, and this represents more his perspective on creationism. He definitely does not accept any 6000 year timetable, and believes in the fossil record.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Book Review: GENESIS versus DARWINISM: The case for God in a scientific world
by Desmond Ford PhD, MSU PhD, Manchester

Interestingly neither of Dr. Ford's doctorates are in the sciences of any kind. They are advanced theological degrees.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Did I mention Desmond's son Luke is best friends with my cousin and used to be a porn star before he converted to Orthodox Judaism.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Book Review: GENESIS versus DARWINISM: The case for God in a scientific world
by Desmond Ford PhD, MSU PhD, Manchester

Genesis versus Darwinism: The case for God in a scientific world

I'm giving a review plus sample quotes from the book.

Overall this is a Creationist book but of a different stripe than what I am used to seeing. It is both a theological work with a particular spin on Genesis and a review of the state of the current Creation vs Evolution disagreement. He discusses a lot of history of the dispute surrounding the Institute for Creation Research and overturns its accusations against Science through bad reasoning and through obscurring facts about geology, completely dismissing Henry Morris. He distances Creationism from all of the chicanery of The Genesis Flood and the circuit-rider creationists. He produces his own claim in its place that Evolution doesn't, to him, make sense or pass his inspection and works out his own scheme. He also discusses a Genesis that is literary rather than literal. You could say he's moving the goalposts of the conversation about Creationism vs Darwinism, so that while the public is still trying to deal with nips and slanders by ICR it now has a new surprise visitor standing behind it. What this book represents is an evolution in the Creationist's argument toolkit for some. I think we will be seeing more of this kind of creationist while the Henry Morris type fades, so collectors hurry up and buy up any used copies of the Genesis Flood. Its a collector's item.

On page 104 he dismisses Morris's book "...the authors of The Genesis Flood have written on the basis of their belief in the Holy Scriptures as the reliable Word of God. This belief I share. Second, it is my sincere conviction that it is a fundamental and extremely dangerous mistake to think that our belief in the reliable Word of God could ever be based on or strengthened by so-called scientific reasoning." new paragraph "Writing a book with such significant claims or conclusions requires a thorough knowledge of the geological sciences and their principles. Neither author--one a theologian, the other a civil engineer, is a geologist. Everybody knows that in the present state of scientific development it is practically impossible for one person to master more than one branch of science...."

page 105 "The actual situation is that the geological time-scale is based on a factual superposition of rocks yielding a factual superposition of paleontological criteria, which has been proved to be the same all over the world."

page 145 he comments about properly interpreting Genesis 1: "Most of all we have never known an omnipotent God, who is an omnipresent Spirit, to use vocal cords and condescend to the activities of a surgeon, a gardener, a walker and a seamstress. But all these are to be found in Genesis chapters 1-3. God is a spirit according to John 4:24. The second commandment implies that. Therefore he has no vocal chords or physical parts such as we know--hands, feet, buttocks, etc."

page 236 concerning Paleontology "Despite the bright promise of paleontology providing a means of 'seeing' evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most significant of which is the presence of 'gaps' in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediaries between species, and paleontology does not provide them."

page 305 "At first we may feel disconcerted by the idea that the Bible could omit so much of human history. Surely it would be good to know more about the Neanderthals and the Cro-Magnons. We forget so easily that early populations were considerably less than a fragment of one percent of today's population. Have we fully understood the way in which Christ concentrated the history of many centuries into a story of just nine verses?..."

I am intrigued by the absence of buttocks and how you can sit on a white throne without them.

Ciao

- viole
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Interestingly neither of Dr. Ford's doctorates are in the sciences of any kind. They are advanced theological degrees.
Yes, and the book is a theological work. He states this, and the book is primarily concerned with theology of interest specifically to Christians who are willing to accept a non literal six days in Genesis. It is significant because while it isn't representing a lot of new ideas its repudiating ICR and Morris in favor of a more robust form of creationism, and I picked it up in a library. It is a strong indication of the direction the mainstream churches are headed --> towards more creationism not less.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
If this is the same Australian theologian I know of, he is a friend of my family, and a longstanding member of the fringe liberal side of the Seventh Day Adventist church, he is a strong proponent of righteousness by faith (a la Paul) than righteousness by works (a la Jesus??) something I disagree with strongly. My father is a research Microbiologist in the Seventh Day Adventist churches Loma Linda University and Medical Centre in Loma Linda CA, and this represents more his perspective on creationism. He definitely does not accept any 6000 year timetable, and believes in the fossil record.
If I recall you don't respect any quotes from the gospel of John, and so you aren't going to like this fellow. You may find his book interesting though. He discusses a lot of things.
Did I mention Desmond's son Luke is best friends with my cousin and used to be a porn star before he converted to Orthodox Judaism.
I always wondered where Orthodox Jews got all those converts from! Reminds me of David in the Bible gathering all the unwanted and turning them into champions and of this proverb: "He who wins souls is wise." Its a good point, because either you are growing or shrinking at any given time.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
i'm not the anti John guy, I think that's Wizanda. I'm primarily anti Paul, and Ford is pretty caught up in Pauline philosophy.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Book Review: GENESIS versus DARWINISM: The case for God in a scientific world
by Desmond Ford PhD, MSU PhD, Manchester

Genesis versus Darwinism: The case for God in a scientific world

I'm giving a review plus sample quotes from the book.

Overall this is a Creationist book but of a different stripe than what I am used to seeing. It is both a theological work with a particular spin on Genesis and a review of the state of the current Creation vs Evolution disagreement. He discusses a lot of history of the dispute surrounding the Institute for Creation Research and overturns its accusations against Science through bad reasoning and through obscurring facts about geology, completely dismissing Henry Morris. He distances Creationism from all of the chicanery of The Genesis Flood and the circuit-rider creationists. He produces his own claim in its place that Evolution doesn't, to him, make sense or pass his inspection and works out his own scheme. He also discusses a Genesis that is literary rather than literal. You could say he's moving the goalposts of the conversation about Creationism vs Darwinism, so that while the public is still trying to deal with nips and slanders by ICR it now has a new surprise visitor standing behind it. What this book represents is an evolution in the Creationist's argument toolkit for some. I think we will be seeing more of this kind of creationist while the Henry Morris type fades, so collectors hurry up and buy up any used copies of the Genesis Flood. Its a collector's item.

On page 104 he dismisses Morris's book "...the authors of The Genesis Flood have written on the basis of their belief in the Holy Scriptures as the reliable Word of God. This belief I share. Second, it is my sincere conviction that it is a fundamental and extremely dangerous mistake to think that our belief in the reliable Word of God could ever be based on or strengthened by so-called scientific reasoning." new paragraph "Writing a book with such significant claims or conclusions requires a thorough knowledge of the geological sciences and their principles. Neither author--one a theologian, the other a civil engineer, is a geologist. Everybody knows that in the present state of scientific development it is practically impossible for one person to master more than one branch of science...."

page 105 "The actual situation is that the geological time-scale is based on a factual superposition of rocks yielding a factual superposition of paleontological criteria, which has been proved to be the same all over the world."

page 145 he comments about properly interpreting Genesis 1: "Most of all we have never known an omnipotent God, who is an omnipresent Spirit, to use vocal cords and condescend to the activities of a surgeon, a gardener, a walker and a seamstress. But all these are to be found in Genesis chapters 1-3. God is a spirit according to John 4:24. The second commandment implies that. Therefore he has no vocal chords or physical parts such as we know--hands, feet, buttocks, etc."

page 236 concerning Paleontology "Despite the bright promise of paleontology providing a means of 'seeing' evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most significant of which is the presence of 'gaps' in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediaries between species, and paleontology does not provide them."

page 305 "At first we may feel disconcerted by the idea that the Bible could omit so much of human history. Surely it would be good to know more about the Neanderthals and the Cro-Magnons. We forget so easily that early populations were considerably less than a fragment of one percent of today's population. Have we fully understood the way in which Christ concentrated the history of many centuries into a story of just nine verses?..."
Of course evolution ("Darwinism" to those who find it too difficult to use the word) has never said boo one way or the other about god, or any involvement he may have had in the origin of life, so I'm curious as to what kind of "versus" Ford deals with in pitting Genesis against evolution. He evidently doesn't believe in speciation, but, as you point out, he also doesn't believe in a literal reading of Genesis. So where does he stand on the source of the Eight million seven hundred thousand (give or take 1.3 million) species now populating Earth?

Nice, clean review by the way. :thumbsup:


.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course evolution ("Darwinism" to those who find it too difficult to use the word) has never said boo one way or the other about god, or any involvement he may have had in the origin of life, so I'm curious as to what kind of "versus" Ford deals with in pitting Genesis against evolution. He evidently doesn't believe in speciation, but, as you point out, he also doesn't believe in a literal reading of Genesis. So where does he stand on the source of the Eight million seven hundred thousand (give or take 1.3 million) species now populating Earth?

Nice, clean review by the way. :thumbsup:


.
He touts something he called Progressive Creation. He says (pg 307): "We know that the well-intentioned efforts of Creationists to prove a young earth and a universal flood have failed. The view of earth's history so offered is false. Ours is the duty of acknowledging as truth all that God has made clear in both Scripture and nature. If our view of one contradicts our interpretation of the other we have erred and must look again. They agree. The geologic column is a fact that no one can deny and it proves beyond all doubt the great age of the earth, and the progressive unfolding of life's forms with man at the summit." (bold italics mine)

He distances this from Theistic Evolution. (pg 306) "The main criticism by some concerning theistic evolution is that it is rather 'woolly' about the facticity of Adam, Eve and the Fall.....If there was no Fall there is no need of redemption and, therefore, no need of Christ and his Cross..."
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
1) I always wondered where Orthodox Jews got all those converts from!

2) Reminds me of ....this proverb: "He who wins souls is wise."

1) Actually they order them from Amazon. Better price price and free shipping if you also buy a book to bring the order over $25.

2) Depends upon how you want to translate ולקח.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
1) Actually they order them from Amazon. Better price price and free shipping if you also buy a book to bring the order over $25.

2) Depends upon how you want to translate ולקח.
Excellent points I am sure. I suppose you could translate that herds goats instead of wins souls.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
1) Actually they order them from Amazon. Better price price and free shipping if you also buy a book to bring the order over $25.
Amazon is good, undeniably so. But the real bargain hunter will always keep an eye on Dan's Deals. Sometimes you can get a whole herd of converts for the price of one convert during a peak month.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
He touts something he called Progressive Creation. He says (pg 307): "We know that the well-intentioned efforts of Creationists to prove a young earth and a universal flood have failed. The view of earth's history so offered is false. Ours is the duty of acknowledging as truth all that God has made clear in both Scripture and nature. If our view of one contradicts our interpretation of the other we have erred and must look again. They agree. The geologic column is a fact that no one can deny and it proves beyond all doubt the great age of the earth, and the progressive unfolding of life's forms with man at the summit." (bold italics mine)

He distances this from Theistic Evolution. (pg 306) "The main criticism by some concerning theistic evolution is that it is rather 'woolly' about the facticity of Adam, Eve and the Fall.....If there was no Fall there is no need of redemption and, therefore, no need of Christ and his Cross..."
Wondering about Ford's "Progressive Creation" I Googled it and came across the following reviews of the book, none of which seems to indicate that Ford constructs a true dispute between Genesis and evolution. As noted below, the only trouble he seems to have with evolution is its lack of a convincing explanation for the scarcity of transitional fossils. A deal breaker for him.

From a 2015 review in Spectrum, a Seventh Day Adventist web site.

"[Ford's] primary assumption while wrestling with the problems of interpreting Genesis in light of modern science is that God has revealed Himself equally in the Bible, and in His second book, nature. This is not a new idea and is one that was often repeated by Ellen G. White, but Ford has the courage to confront these issues head-on, assuming that these two books should have equal weight. In order to do this, he makes the case that the Bible is not intended to be a science book, so that when God’s message from nature appears to conflict with God’s message in the Bible, it may well be that we have incorrectly used the Bible to interpret nature.

The only aspect of evolution that Ford sees as a problem is the lack of transition fossils.
"So, based on the fossil record, natural selection does not seem to be sufficient to account for the evolution of life".
source


From Adventist Today

"To the author, the solution to the “problems [presented by] geology archaeology, and accepted science” is “Progressive Creationism.” His belief is “that not chance but God is behind all life in all its various stages. What scientists [describe] as the ‘abrupt’ appearance of new kinds is really the willing and creative power of God. This I believe is the clear teaching of Scripture” (181).
source


And from Adventist Review (Apparently Adventists are the only ones paying much attention to Ford and his book)

“Genesis does concern a week,” he writes, “but it’s a parabolic not a literal week.”

Dr. Ford posited, instead, something called “progressive creationism,” which he claims harmonizes the Bible and and current science. According to Ford’s scenario, God started simple life billions of years ago, during which the Lord progressively created “ascending life forms” until He made the first Adam, ha-adam of Genesis 1-3, who, unfortunately, sinned (hence, the Gospel is “preserved”).
source
My emphasis

It's obvious that Ford misunderstands punctuated equilibrium, Stephen J.Gould and Niles Eldridge's explanation for the scarcity of transitional fossils in certain periods, and has fabricated god's intervention to account for them. God's ascending life forms” he evidently calls it. And what is meant by "God is behind all life in all its various stages," and "the Lord progressively created “ascending life forms” is anyone's guess. Personally, it's not a theory I find worth pursuing.


.r




 
Last edited:

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
He touts something he called Progressive Creation. He says (pg 307): "We know that the well-intentioned efforts of Creationists to prove a young earth and a universal flood have failed. The view of earth's history so offered is false. Ours is the duty of acknowledging as truth all that God has made clear in both Scripture and nature. If our view of one contradicts our interpretation of the other we have erred and must look again. They agree. The geologic column is a fact that no one can deny and it proves beyond all doubt the great age of the earth, and the progressive unfolding of life's forms with man at the summit." (bold italics mine)

He distances this from Theistic Evolution. (pg 306) "The main criticism by some concerning theistic evolution is that it is rather 'woolly' about the facticity of Adam, Eve and the Fall.....If there was no Fall there is no need of redemption and, therefore, no need of Christ and his Cross..."


It was also considered 'beyond doubt' that the bone fragments of Piltdown man belonged together. - but similarly this largely applied to academia, not most of free thinking humanity who correctly deduced it was cobblers all along!

My money isnt on YEC, but I agree with Ben Carson on this- on God creating a world which appears, superficially, to be much older than it is. People forget; he's God, he created the laws of nature, he is not bound by his own laws!
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It was also considered 'beyond doubt' that the bone fragments of Piltdown man belonged together. - but similarly this largely applied to academia, not most of free thinking humanity who correctly deduced it was cobblers all along!

My money isnt on YEC, but I agree with Ben Carson on this- on God creating a world which appears, superficially, to be much older than it is. People forget; he's God, he created the laws of nature, he is not bound by his own laws!
And no matter what the problem, plugging in a "God fixed it because he can fix anything, no matter how irrational it may be." is always a saving recourse. The world isn't really billions of years old, god just made it look that way, because . . . . . well. . . . . well because he could. So there. :p


.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Amazon is good, undeniably so. But the real bargain hunter will always keep an eye on Dan's Deals. Sometimes you can get a whole herd of converts for the price of one convert during a peak month.
See? 'Herd'. That proves it.
 
Top