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Book of Mormon vs Bible

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by Abram, Dec 24, 2005.

  1. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    I gotta tell you I've been though many religions on this site but I keep coming back to the LDS area. I grew up with them as friends, visited them at college (Ricks, BYU). Even been in there temple in Oregon when it first opened. (Wow I might add)

    But my only hang up is the Book of Mormon. I love the Bible and everything it's done for me. I know in my heart there is a God and he wants us to know him.
    I'm sure everyone says the "what about at the end of Revelation." I found enough evidence already here at RF to get past that. But I want more.:help:

    1.What does the BoM teach that the Bible has not covered?

    2.Do they conterdict one another?

    3.How can I get one for free? :D So I can make my own decision on it.

    Pretend your at my house and I'm attentively listening. Cause I am... Sell me on this Book!!!!
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, Abram.

    Well, quite frankly, I'm surprised to hear you say that. But surprised in a very nice way. ;)

    Okay, first off, the title of your thread implies an either/or relationship between the two books. That's the first obstacle I would challenge you to overcome. The subtitle of The Book of Mormon is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." It's purpose, as stated on the cover page is "...to show unto the remant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever -- And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself until all nations..."

    We believe that Jesus is the Christ. We believe that He is the Son of God, the Savior of the world and the only means by which man might be reconciled to the Father of us all. The Bible testifies of these facts. So does The Book of Mormon. It's purpose is to stand as an additional witness to what the Bible tells us about God the Father and His beloved Son. The Book of Mormon never contradicts the Bible. They are both the word of God.

    God loves all of His children equally, and as The Book of Mormon states, "Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

    Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

    And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever."

    In John 10:16, Jesus told his followers in the Holy Land, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." He had previously told His Apostles that His own personal mission was solely to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Obviously, then, the sheep which He spoke of in this verse were of the House of Israel. They had been separated from their brothers in the Holy Land. He said they would hear His voice -- not merely His words. And so they did. He appeared to them after His resurrection. They had been living on the American content for some 600 years by then, but they knew He had been born to become their Savior because their prophets had taught of Him for all these many years.

    As far back as Old Testament times, God commanded His people to keep a record of His words to them. In Ezekiel 37:15-17, He spoke of two separate records. Here's what those verses say, "The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand." The Bible is a history of the descendents of Judah; it is the stick of Judah. The Book of Mormon is a history of the descendents of Joseph; it is the stick of Joseph. They are one in the hand of those whose minds and hearts are open to that realization.

    I realize that I have left most of your questions unanswered. I have to leave now for a Christmas Eve dinner. I will try to respond to the rest of your post as soon as I can, provided another Latter-day Saint doesn't get to it first.

    Meanwhile, I hope you and yours have a very Merry Christmas and find peace and love in remembering the life of our Savior.

    Kathryn
     
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  3. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Hi Abram,

    There are a couple of ways you can get a free Book of Mormon.

    You can order a Book of Mormon for free here:
    http://www.mormon.org/freeoffers/1,17785,2071-1-1,00.html?src=tv

    You can also stop by any LDS church on Sunday and ask for one. They will have some that they can give out.

    The third option would be to send me a PM and I will get one to you. I'm in Vancouver until the middle of next week. I could either mail one to you or drop it off somewhere. Let me know.
     
  4. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    As for whether or not the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, members of the LDS church would of course say no (some Christians would say that the very existence of the book contradicts the Bible, since they believe that all of God's word has already been collected into the Bible). I have no problem believing that both are the word of God.

    I remember one member of Religious Forums commenting that he found the Book of Mormon to be very consistent internally. The Book of Mormon contains the gospel of Jesus Christ - it is the same gospel that is taught in the New Testament. What the Book of Mormon does that the Bible doesn't do is get into specific details on topics such as the fall, the resurrection, etc. I have found that the Book of Mormon testifies of the truthfulness of the Bible as another witness of Jesus Christ.
     
  5. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    As Jonny says, we (LDS) are bound to say there are no contradictions, but there are plenty who disagree. Just look around the forums and I'm sure you'll find some thread discussing "Mormon Christ vs. Biblical Christ."

    The answers of the others seem pretty complete, but I though I'd give some special emphasis to answering your first question: what does the Book of Mormon say that the Bible doesn't?

    The short answer: nothing. I can't find any doctrinal element in the Book of Mormon that doesn't exist in the Bible. The real value of the book is, as Katzpur says, to be a witness. It's supposed to stand next to the Bible, continuing the foundation laid by that cornerstone text.

    There is additional value, of course, in hearing the same things in different ways. The lessons and allegories sometimes appear in either text in a more complete or clear form. I much prefer Paul's sermon on charity to Mormon's, but OTOH I drastically prefer the Jacob allegory of the olive tree to Paul's (drastically abridged) version. Just like I didn't get calculus until I got the right teacher, sometimes we learn things better if we hear them from different points of view.
     
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  6. benjosh

    benjosh Member

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    Reply to Abram.
    I am not a Mormon but a person believing the Book of Mormon is true.
    I don't see the Bible and Book of Mormon as an either/or situation.
    To understand the Bible and Book of Mormon there are some big cultural problems most people have to work through. Or maybe I should say sub-cultures.

    Strip back all the religious hype and cultural bias and here is what you come up with.

    The Book of Mormon has an account of Jesus visiting the Indians after his resurrection. Now, because the Bible doesn't say it happened does that mean it didn't happen?

    Did the Jesus of the Book of Mormon act like the same Jesus in the Bible?
    Let's see, healing the sick, blessing children, teaching them many of the same things he taught at Jerusalem.

    Critics have said the things he taught in the Book of Mormon were plagarized from the Bible. (I guess Jesus should have changed the truth to keep the critics happy)

    So, imagine what happens when a farm boy digs up the record and translates it as the Book of Mormon. Andrew Jackson has just been elected president, his supporters trash the white house on inaugaration day in tribute to the man elected primarily because he's just so good at killing them savage Indians. He begins the removal of almost all the Indians to the west of Missouri.

    Well here comes a scripture book saying Jesus loves Jews, Gentiles, and Indians. Boy what heresy.

    The Christians are divided because quite a few of them already believe the Indians are a lost tribe of Isreal. Some are deep into the Old Testament prophets as well as the New Testament. They are expecting the gathering of the lost tribes before Jesus returns.
    And, these Christians aren't fringe nut-cases.
    They've been prepped by people like Elias Boudinout, the founder of the American Bible Society, director of the US Mint under George Washington, and President of the Continental Congress (a US prez before George) writes a book with evidences the Indians are a tribe of Israel.

    So, the Christians who think the Indians are a tribe of Israel and also their brothers in Christ don't just blow the B o M off according to what the dominant culture tells them.

    Within a couple of years time the Christians who believe the book is true join the Church of Christ which the Christians mockingly call Mormons.

    When the new church with Indian Bible moves to Missouri and purchases large tracts of land and propsers, the people mob them and burn out their homes because they've had enough of these crazy people who preach to Indians and Blacks. If the Mormons stay they're really going to be bad for the whiskey business and put silly notions in the slaves' heads. And, who knows what they'll get the Indians to do? Besides that these crazy Mormons speak in tongues and believe that God actually heals people.
    Man what was wrong with these people? They actually believed God could still speak to prophets and each one of them individually. Didn't they know those things stopped with the New Testament church and the sealing of the words of God into the Bible? What in the world were these crazy Mormons thinking?
    Did they think that God could add more scripture like he did when he brought forth the New Testament?
    Hey that's enough for now. . . . . . . to be continued
     
  7. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    This is an exciting day! An RLDS forum member. I don't think I've seen one here yet. I hope you stick around! :)
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hey, benjosh!

    Good to see you here. You are sure to be able to add an interesting perspective to the forum with your RLDS background. But, I'm curious... I thought the term RLDS was no longer used. Aren't you the Community of Christ now? At any rate, I echo jonny's statement: Stick around and contribute often!

    Kathryn
     
  9. benjosh

    benjosh Member

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    Well, it is now Community of Christ, and I am actually from a derivative group of the RLDS. I said RLDS because there are so many CHristians on this site who don't even know the difference between LDS & RLDS. So, rather than lengthy explanations, I used the term RLDS. I fellowship in study groups in Independence with LDS, C of C, and other restoration folks.
    I will contribute as I can. I currently have time to contribute but don't know how regular I will be in the near future.
    But seems like there are some friendly interesting folks here.
    So, greetings from Indepndence, Mo a place where so much of our history lies.
     
  10. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Yes, that's what I was thinking!! I almost jumped out of my chair and did a jig, because it's so exciting!

    One of the things I'd like to learn more about is what the differences between RLDS and LDS are. It's something I've been very eager to learn about, but I wanted to get it first hand, rather than rely on what might or might not be accurate information found on web sites and the like.
     
  11. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Here are some links to some of the other Restoration LDS churches from http://www.hopeofzion.com/links.htm.
    I think some of the links are broken, but it's a start.

     
  12. benjosh

    benjosh Member

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    Hi, Aqualung,

    Happy to share. I'll try and give you a thumbnail sketch of the RLDS differences. Please realize, this is just the perspective of one who is basically a seeker of truth and wants to get beneath the trappings of religion to relationship with our Heavenly Father and HIs great and Marvelous work. (Through, Jesus CHrist, of course.)

    LDS & RLDS share all the history of 1820's to 1844
    At Joseph murder the church splits into factions over leadership. Brigham takes a the largest group west. Sydney Rigdon gets a faction (they wind up in Pennsylvania.
    A group of people who follow no particular faction keep in close affiliation with one another without a formal organization. They operate in their priesthood offices, performordinances etc. without an official top down organizational structure.
    IN the early 1860's Joseph Smith III, son of Joseph Smith Jr. has a spiritual experience and shortly thereafter is approached by priesthood of the lose knit groups mainly throughout Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, Missouri, and Iowa.
    Joseph III is in his thirties at the time and has a successful law practice. To this point in time he had no desire to follow in the footsteps of his father.
    He accepts call to be Prophet Seer and Revelator, with a testimony and evidences that he was ordained or blessed to succeed under the hand of his father as a child. He served until his death in 1914.

    Doctrinal differences between LDS and RLDS that emerged over the years. . . . RLDS No polygamy, No temple ordinances, Baptism for dead not rejected, but not practiced. No Adam God theory. Educationally the church establishes Graceland College and later takes over Park College. Church establishes hospital in Independence. Builds the Auditorium.
    In 1984 Wallace B. Smith, great grandson of Joseph SMith Jr., gives revelation for women in priesthood. The church splits with more than half rejecting the revelation as without scriptural precedence. I was working in the
    AUditorium Electronic Media department at the time of the split and my personal walk with the RLDS changed as women in the priesthood was pushed upon the people. Attempts to rectify the situation within the church organization faill and I become a non-participating member, joining with others. We are basically in a situation similar to that of the RLDS from 1844 to to 1860.
    In 1990 the RLDS church builds a temple in Independence. It is the first edifice ever called a temple by that faith tradition. The Kirtland edifice was always designated "The House of the Lord".
    Around 2000 the RLDS renames itself The Community of Christ.
    The atmosphere in Indpendence is increasingly one of mutual cooperation. I study and fellowship with C of C people and others from various restorationist groups, including LDS. The LDS and RLDS/C of C have cooperated on various endeavors within the community. ANd by the way, there is a sizable South Pacific LDS presence here.
    Does that satisfy your appetite for now?
    BenJosh
    :D
     
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  13. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Thanks, Ben. Although, I am afraid that the thread has been hijacked. Perhaps a new thread on the differences between the two churches can be started. I'd be very interested in reading and participating in it.
     
  14. benjosh

    benjosh Member

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    Soy you said,
    That's fine with me.

    If some people are interested. Maybe I should move the contents of the post quoted to a thread with an appropriate heading
    .
    How do we do that?

    BenJosh
     
  15. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Actually, I'm not sure. Maybe a Mod can help.
     
  16. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    .

    In My personal opinion and with no offense to katz, Aqualung, ect, I don't feel that the bom teaches anything that the bible hasn't covered .

    For example, The Book of Mormon is purported to be "a second witness to the Bible"—a witness that condemns and claims the Bible is in error. 1 Nephi 13:24-40 informs us that many "plain and precious things" are taken from the Bible, (verse 28), and 2 Nephi chapter twenty-nine states that anyone who claims the Bible is sufficient and they need no other book is "a fool." The Mormon church has four books which are accepted as scripture.
    "By the standard works of the Church is meant the following four volumes of scripture: The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. The Church uses the King James Version of the Bible, but acceptance of the Bible is coupled with a reservation that it is true only insofar as translated correctly, (Eighth Article of Faith.) The other three, having been revealed in modern times in English, are accepted without qualification." (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, Pg 764).

    Yet here is what the bible has to say on the matter,

    My words shall not pass away. Mat 24:35
    Not the smallest letter shall disappear Mat 5:18
    Forever, thy word is settled Psa 119:89
    Word of God shall stand forever 1Pe 1:25
    Grass Wither, Word stands forever. Isa 40:8

    2. THE BIBLE CLAIMS TO BE THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD:

    All scripture inspired. 2Ti 3:16, 17
    Holy Spirit author of Bible 2Pe 1:21
    The word of God, living and active Hbr 4:12
    Absolutely trustworthy 1Ki 8:56
    The Lord speaks it will be fulfilled Eze 12:25

    3. THE BIBLE CONTAINS EVERYTHING WE NEED FOR SALVATION:

    Given us all things that pertain to life. 2Pe 1:3
    Power of God for salvation Rom 1:16
    Gives hope Rom 15:4
    Gives, knowledge of eternal life. 1Jo 5:13

    4. ANY BORN AGAIN BELIEVER CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE:

    Gives light in dark places 2Pe 1:19
    Purifies the life Psa 119:9
    Believers share a common teacher, the Holy Spirit Eph 4:4, 5
    If he does not depend mans wisdom 2Cr 2:9-14
    If he lets the Bible instruct him 2Ti 3:16
    If he searches the scriptures regularly, daily Act 17:11
    If he seeks to get his approval from the Bible 2Ti 2:15
    If Christ is his only Master. Mat 23:8-12

    5. ITS WORD IS SACRED, NOT TO BE ALTERED:

    Do not add or take away. Deu 12:32
    Do not add to His words Psa 30:6
    If any man add, God will add plagues Rev 22:18
    If any one takes away, God will take away Rev 22:19


    NOTE:
    The Mormon Church makes this statement about the Bible:
    "After the book (Bible) hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church...there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book." 1Nephi 13:28

    There is no evidence for this statement. Christ promised to be with his church always, even to the end of the world. Matthew 28:20 and the Holy Spirit has been given to the church forever, John 14:16, by whose guidance the church continues to live and work. Because of the guiding of the Spirit, through the word there is no need for the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Pric

    Again I believe so take for example what is taught about the church ?

    Only L.D.S. have authority to baptize, ordain, etc. They have a two-part system of priesthood—Aaronic and Melchizedek.
    "Man cannot act legally in the name of the Lord unless he is vested with the priesthood, which is divine authority. No man has the power or the right to take this honor to himself. Unless he is called of God as was Aaron, he has no authority to officiate in any of the ordinances of the gospel: should he do so his act is not valid or recognized in the heavens." (Doctrine and Salvation by Joseph F. Smith, Vol.111, Pg. 80.

    but here is what the bible teaches JESUS IS THE GREAT HIGH PRIEST

    Great high priest, Jesus Hbr 4:14
    High priest who sits on the right hand of the throne Hbr 8:1, 2

    2. JESUS HOLDS THE MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD:

    High priest after the order of Melchizedec Hbr 5:9, 10
    Unchangeable priesthood. Hbr 7:24, 25

    3. THE MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD IS WITHOUT SUCCESSORS:

    Melchizedek priesthood given to Jesus alone, endless life Hbr 7:16, 17
    ...ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hbr 7:25

    4. THE AARONIC PRIESTHOOD, TERMINATED ITS FUNCTION AT THE CROSS.

    Jesus bore, in his own body our sins upon the tree 1Pe 2:24
    At the death, the veil of the Temple was torn in two. Mat 27:51

    5. CHRIST BECAME BOTH PRIEST AND OFFERING:

    Priesthood changed. Hbr 7:12
    Christ the end of the law. Rom 10:4
    Jesus makes intercession for us. Hbr 4:14-16

    6. JESUS MADE US A KINGDOM OF PRIEST TO SERVE GOD.

    Made us a kingdom of priest. Rev 1:4-6
    Chosen race, the royal priesthood 1Pe 2:9

    7. WE ARE TO OFFER THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ACCEPTABLE SACRIFICES:

    Praise Jer 33:11; Hbr 13:15
    Our bodies Rom 12:1
    Our prayers Pro 15:8


    posted with all due respect to the LDS..If I have misquoted anything I apoligise to all...
     
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  17. benjosh

    benjosh Member

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  18. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    You're pretty much right about that. The BoM just goes into more depth in some things.

    The BoM doesn't say that the Bible is in error; it just says it's less than complete, something that the Bible pretty much admits, too. When prophets or apostles speak of certain books that are helpful, yet we don't have these books, it's obvious that stuff has been lost, many plain and precious things amoung that.

    In the very begining of John it says that Jesus is The Word. That obviously isn't referring to the Bible (the word was made flesh could only be talking of Jesus). Yet why do these specific scriptures refer exactly to what is written in the Bible, a book that hadn't been compiled until well after most of those words were written? When it says that his words will never pass away, I think it's more refferring to the fact that God won't say one thing one day and then change his mind the next day. His words to us last forever, because they are forever applicable and important. It's not referring to the Bible per se.

    Yes it is. Including the BoM. :D

    That says that prophesy of scripture is of the holy ghost. It does not say that those who are prophecying are necessarily the ones doing the writing of scripture.

    That just says the word of God is quick and powerful. It says nothing about some of the words that men wrote about the words of God.

    Uh, that verse is talking specifically about a promise that Jehovah gave the people through Moses. That one can't even be loosely interpreted to mean the Bible as in the other ones.

    Once again, how do you make that that means the Bible is inspired?

    Who is us? HOw did he give that knowledge? I see no indication that this verse says that the Bible was given to me and you because it contains everything. It just says that to Peter and at least one other person was given that knowledge, and does not say how that knowledge was given.

    That says "the Gospel of chirst" is what you need for salvation, not "the Bible" is all you need for salvation.

    First of all, is hope all you need for salvation? Second of all, that speaks of all scripture, not just the Bible.

    That says "theset higns have I written unto you." Do you take that to mean the entire Bible? DId John write the entire bible? I think not. Well, then, let's throw out all but 1 John then!

    Yep, it does. But that nothing of either born again believers or understanding the Bible.

    Same as above.

    That doesn't say anything about that.

    I don't even know why you picked that verse. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with born again believers being able to understand the Bible.

    Not "The Bible," but "all scripture."

    Then whoever it was who took away all those plain and precious things is screwed! :D

    Anyway, though, none of those speak of The Bible but instead speak of the word of god.

    There isn't? Check out this link! http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/scrptrsl

    Don't be silly. He said that if they teach them to observe all the things whatsoever that he has commened him, then he would be with them forever.

    But before that he said if you love me, keep my commandments, and I will ....

    I'll have to let somebody else answer the priesthood stuff. That's my weak spot.
     
  19. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    I've read a little ways in the BofM so far. Let me ask a strange question. If I stick to just the Bible and go to a Mormon church would that work? Would they allow me to not to read from the BoM?
     
  20. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    No one will force you to do anything if you go to an LDS church. You can just sit and listen if you want. You'll probably have people try to get you to take the missionary lessons, but I've known people who have gone to the LDS church for years without being a member. To be baptised into the church it is understood that you accept the Book of Mormon as being the word of God.
     
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