Book of Job

[lunamoth]

This thread is kind of a placeholder to remind me that I want to ask you all about the Book of Job. My brain is too tired right now to develop much of an OP, except first to say that I think it's astounding (in a good way) that this book is in the Bible.

So, until I get a good night's sleep, what do you all think is the main point of the Book of Job?

 

[Poisonshady313]

This thread is kind of a placeholder to remind me that I want to ask you all about the Book of Job. My brain is too tired right now to develop much of an OP, except first to say that I think it's astounding (in a good way) that this book is in the Bible.

So, until I get a good night's sleep, what do you all think is the main point of the Book of Job?

We don't always understand God's ways, so rather than give up when we get frustrated that bad things are happening to good people, make the best of a bad situation, soldier on, have faith that things will get better, and eventually they will.

 

[tomspug]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/abrahamic-religions/61444-book-job.html

Here's a thread I started awhile ago.

 

[Charity]

Patience...................

 

[Jeremy Mason]

This thread is kind of a placeholder to remind me that I want to ask you all about the Book of Job. My brain is too tired right now to develop much of an OP, except first to say that I think it's astounding (in a good way) that this book is in the Bible.

So, until I get a good night's sleep, what do you all think is the main point of the Book of Job?

I look forward to talking with you about such a reveling book concerning a loyal servant of God, his contemporaries, and God.

 

[lunamoth]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/abrahamic-religions/61444-book-job.html

Here's a thread I started awhile ago.

Apologies for missing this tomspug. I will go read what you have to say there.

 

[lunamoth]

Just a couple of things I recently learned about the Book of Job. First, that the beginning and end prose sections are an ancient story that revolves around the question: would people still be loyal to God if there were no reward? (the first challenge, from Satan to God).

The central poem was probably written around the fifth century BCE. It is inconsistent with the prologue and epilogue in some places as it seeks to explore the problem of the suffering of the innocent. Job in understandable human fashion sets the problem up as a court case, where he challenges God on the traditional view of God's justice, "Does not calamity befall the unrighteous, and disaster the workers of iniquity?" He challenges God to come forward and answer to the charges, to justify the punishment he has inflicted upon Job.* (the second challenge, from Job to God).

Job's friends, representing traditional wisdom, are worse than unhelpful in their dialogues with Job. Conventional wisdom says Job must somehow be at fault for his problems. Just think how that would make us feel if we've lost everything and more!

When God does speak, he does not answer the challenge Job has brought. Instead, there is what I think of as a response that makes a double point, insufficient if we just stop at the first point: the power, glory and majesty of God, the 'God's way is not our way' response. The unconventional wisdom of the second part of the response is not based upon traditional moralism (the righteous are blessed), but upon a relationship in which both parties have freedom and choice in the relationship. Relationships are not bound by cause and effect, but can alter the course of cause and effect. The second part of the response is echoed in Job's statement "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you." Job recognizes a personal relationship is involved, not a quid pro quo deal. Even among people we don't think of our relationships as if they were business deals or something that we would test or justify in court. Our personal relationships are based upon love, as is our relationship with God.

I'll choose to think that this is what Nietzche meant by 'Love is beyond good and evil.'


* Based upon readings in the course: Education for Ministry, The University of the South

 

[lilithu]

I am continually surprised by how many people say the moral of Job is to be patient, etc. I have to wonder whether these people have even read the book. Because if you did, you'd see that Job loses his patience with God, gets angry and accusatory, and his three friends chastise him saying that God is always just and therefore he must be content with whatever God decrees. In fact, they suggest that he must deserve what he got. And in the end, after arguing with Job a bit, GOD SIDES WITH JOB, not his friends. God says that only Job has spoken truth about him. It wasn't Job's "patience" that turned things around. It was his finally confronting the injustice of what had happened to him and demanding an accounting from God himself.

So then, what is the main point of the book of Job?

 

[lunamoth]

So then, what is the main point of the book of Job?

Good question. I don't think there is one right answer to that, which is why I was hoping this would be an interesting thread. I have to say that I have been very inspired by the interpretation I just learned in my theology class, which I have been referring to in this thread and tom's.

Job has been granted a person-to-person encounter with his Creator. In the face of the calamities he has suffered, in spite of the absence of any logical meaning by which his sufferings can be justified, the vision of God suffices. It is a humbling experience; his vaunted pride is smashed--"therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (42:6). The whole issue has been set in a new context. The fundamental religous issue is not rigid obedience to every command with a corresponding reward of blessing from God. The result of that would a simple--and simplistic--moralism. The issue is the creature's trusting love of the Creator, and the Creator's intimate personal concern.

 

[lilithu]

Good question. I don't think there is one right answer to that, which is why I was hoping this would be an interesting thread. I have to say that I have been very inspired by the interpretation I just learned in my theology class, which I have been referring to in this thread and tom's.

I don't see Job as proud. I wonder what the author that you quote uses to support this claim.

The way that I interpret the Job story, Satan and then God are right to question Job's faith because his faith is uncertain. Job is blameless and upright, like no other on earth. But he's not doing it in order to get a reward. He's doing it for fear of punishment. And as evidence I offer this:

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East. 4 His sons used to take turns holding feasts in their homes, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

This was a man who lived in constant fear that if one slips up, God will punish. So... what happens when it seems like God is punishing even when one hasn't slipped up? Job lives in fear of a capricious and mean God. What happens when his worst fears are realized?

 

[lunamoth]

I don't see Job as proud. I wonder what the author that you quote uses to support this claim.

The way that I interpret the Job story, Satan and then God are right to question Job's faith because his faith is uncertain. Job is blameless and upright, like no other on earth. But he's not doing it in order to get a reward. He's doing it for fear of punishment. And as evidence I offer this:

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East. 4 His sons used to take turns holding feasts in their homes, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

This was a man who lived in constant fear that if one slips up, God will punish. So... what happens when it seems like God is punishing even when one hasn't slipped up? Job lives in fear of a capricious and mean God. What happens when his worst fears are realized?

I think you'll have to answer that because the idea that Job's worshiping out of fear does not seem compelling (to me) from the above, although you could read that into it. It just seems to me to be saying that he was an obedient Hebrew, following the law to the best of his ability. I would read 'fear' as 'awe.'

As for the 'pride,' well it's pretty consistent through each of us, not really a stretch. "Will you condemn me that you may be justified?" (40:8).

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This thread is kind of a placeholder to remind me that I want to ask you all about the Book of Job. My brain is too tired right now to develop much of an OP, except first to say that I think it's astounding (in a good way) that this book is in the Bible.

So, until I get a good night's sleep, what do you all think is the main point of the Book of Job?

Make sacrifices for your children because they are party animals.
Job 1:
"And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters... And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually."

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Another important lesson. Your best friends may give scriptural advice but that doesn't mean it's applicable.

Also Job's wife may have gotten a bad deal. When she told Job, "Why don't you curse God and die," she was probably wanting Job to be out of his misery.

 

[Phasmid]

There was an episode of South Park which dealt with this part of the Bible. I wont go into details since... well... I just wont. But at one point in the episode Kial said something like, "So God did all these horrible things to Job just to prove a point to Satan?"

Did He?

 

[lilithu]

I think you'll have to answer that because the idea that Job's worshiping out of fear does not seem compelling (to me) from the above, although you could read that into it. It just seems to me to be saying that he was an obedient Hebrew, following the law to the best of his ability. I would read 'fear' as 'awe.'

As for the 'pride,' well it's pretty consistent through each of us, not really a stretch. "Will you condemn me that you may be justified?" (40:8).

I'm not basing my interpretation from just the single word "fear," which could just mean to hold in awe, but also his expressed fears about the safety of his children and the continual need to offer repentance for possible offenses. He's not just worried about things they've actually done but about things they might have done that he doesn't know about.

As for pride, sure it is consistent through each of us, so why single Job out over it? Did he voice anything in the beginning of the story to call attention to his pride?

So Job lives his life upright and blameless, not for want of reward but for fear of punishment. And God notices him and points him out to Satan. And Satan says, Yeah sure he's upright and blameless now that you've given him all this stuff, but take it away and he'll curse you. Satan thinks that Job's behavior is due to desire for reward. God knows better. So God lets Satan take everything away from Job and lo and behold, Job suffers but is still blameless and upright. One could attribute this to his superior moral character. But one could also interpret this as Job being resigned to what he already believed God to be - scary and capricious. Or both. At any rate, God points out to Satan that Job is still blameless and upright, and at this point, Satan says, Sure he's upright and blameless because he's afraid of punishment, but afflict him and he'll curse you. So God lets Satan afflict Job, covers him in boils so that not only does he suffer physically but he is made into a social outcast.

His wife tells Job to curse God and die, that is, to recognize that God is not fair and be done with it. But Job continues to suffer without cursing God. His three friends come to visit and at first they commiserate with him his loss, but soon they get into an argument, because his friends are of the opinion that God is always fair - that if you obey the rules and do good then you will be rewarded, and if you are afflicted then it MUST mean that you have done something wrong. Job insists that he is innocent and has done nothing wrong. His friends grow more and more incredulous with every insistence and go from sympathetic to accusatory. It's understandable. If what Job says is correct, then their own worlds are put into doubt. So they start attacking him, insisting that God is always just and that his own refusal to repent is making things worse. It is THIS that Job cannot stand.

The loss of his property and children he put up with without complaint. Even the affliction against his health and social standing he took. But to be accused of wrong doing when he knew that he had not was too much for him. He is now convinced of what he was always afraid of in the back of his mind - the same fear that his friends have but will not acknowledge, instead getting all self-righteous on him. So he launches into his own diatribe, but against God, demanding that God account for God's actions.

God comes down and says, 'How dare you question God? Where were you when I made the Universe?,' etc To which Job of course has no answer. He acquiesces. At this point, other readers may still be thinking that whatever God does is right by definition, but some readers like myself are like what the heck? All God has done is claim that might makes right. God hasn't justified God's actions against Job and Job was RIGHT; Job did not do anything wrong.

But then God does a very surprising thing. God says that Jobs friends, the ones who were saying that God is always fair were liars, and implies (from my interpretation) that they were "Yes-men" - that they only defended God for fear of their own skins, and that ONLY Job spoke the truth about God. And God is so mad at Job's friends that he demands that they each provide Job with a portion of their own wealth, to appease God's wrath, in exchange for which Job will intercede with God on their behalf.

Job's wealth thereby begins to be restored, and God gives him new children. And the author goes to the trouble of telling you what Job named his new daughters. Women are rarely explicitly mentioned in the OT unless they do something wrong or something bad happens to them, so this is in and of itself noteworthy. And I can't remember the meanings of the names he gives his three daughters but they all have to do with beauty and happy, nice things.

And in the end of the story, Job is back where he was in the beginning - a well respected, wealthy man surrounded by family. Except for one thing. He no longer makes sacrifices in atonement for imaginary insults to a wrathful God. He lives his life happy, blameless and upright, and loving God without fear. By afflicting Job and forcing him to confront his fears, God released Job from them.

The point of the story of Job? It it's NOT that patience and unquestioning platitudes towards God are rewarded. In fact, quite the opposite. It's love of God for the sake of love of God. Not for desire for reward, nor for fear of punishment. Life is NOT fair. Bad things happen to good people (and vice versa). Get over it. Love anyway.

 

[lilithu]

But at one point in the episode Kial said something like, "So God did all these horrible things to Job just to prove a point to Satan?"

Did He?

No. God did it to prove a point to Job.

 

[Charity]

I am continually surprised by how many people say the moral of Job is to be patient, etc. I have to wonder whether these people have even read the book. Because if you did, you'd see that Job loses his patience with God, gets angry and accusatory, and his three friends chastise him saying that God is always just and therefore he must be content with whatever God decrees. In fact, they suggest that he must deserve what he got. And in the end, after arguing with Job a bit, GOD SIDES WITH JOB, not his friends. God says that only Job has spoken truth about him. It wasn't Job's "patience" that turned things around. It was his finally confronting the injustice of what had happened to him and demanding an accounting from God himself.

So then, what is the main point of the book of Job?

My point of view is through all the trials that Job or anyone goes through, don't you think that you grow by these trials. We are tested by trials and through them you learn patience. Paitence is learning to wait, Like Wait on the Lord, everything is in God's Time, not ours, and each person learns different things through different experiences....I have gone through so many things myself in the last 8 years and I have read and thought about Job a lot. God has a plan for all of us, and most of us tend to want something on demand, but I see that through it all we need patience, trust, prayer and strength and wait on God. There was a time a few years ago I was so physically ill and I looked in the mirror and saw someone I didn't recognize stare back at me...I had lost weight, looked bad, and all of a sudden I thought about the phrase, "Just Curse God and die". I felt so sick that I was past caring about living. But from somewhere deep inside, I knew that if I could just hold on, Keep the faith a little longer, (in other words be patient) that God would prevail. :bow:

So there are different interpretations on scripture, and thank God , he brought that one to my mind at the time I needed it. How can you say that one person's interpretaion is not right as long as it glorifies God?

 

[lunamoth]

The point of the story of Job? It it's NOT that patience and unquestioning platitudes towards God are rewarded. In fact, quite the opposite. It's love of God for the sake of love of God. Not for desire for reward, nor for fear of punishment. Life is NOT fair. Bad things happen to good people (and vice versa). Get over it. Love anyway.

I'll have to re-read Job with your interpretation in mind and see if I can get any milage out of it. Even if I don't, though, I totally agree with the conclusion you draw from it.

The System *curse you System* will not let me frubal you again.

 

[lunamoth]

So there are different interpretations on scripture, and thank God , he brought that one to my mind at the time I needed it. How can you say that one person's interpretaion is not right as long as it glorifies God?

Yes, excellent point. And I think the contrast lilithu and myself earlier were making is not that the development of patience (and other virtues) through tests is unimportant, but that these are their own rewards, not things we do for further reward from God. Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that was what I saw in your post.

I think your story of hope in God keeping you going through your illness is inspiring. Thank you.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm not basing my interpretation from just the single word "fear," which could just mean to hold in awe, but also his expressed fears about the safety of his children and the continual need to offer repentance for possible offenses. He's not just worried about things they've actually done but about things they might have done that he doesn't know about.

As for pride, sure it is consistent through each of us, so why single Job out over it? Did he voice anything in the beginning of the story to call attention to his pride?

So Job lives his life upright and blameless, not for want of reward but for fear of punishment. And God notices him and points him out to Satan. And Satan says, Yeah sure he's upright and blameless now that you've given him all this stuff, but take it away and he'll curse you. Satan thinks that Job's behavior is due to desire for reward. God knows better. So God lets Satan take everything away from Job and lo and behold, Job suffers but is still blameless and upright. One could attribute this to his superior moral character. But one could also interpret this as Job being resigned to what he already believed God to be - scary and capricious. Or both. At any rate, God points out to Satan that Job is still blameless and upright, and at this point, Satan says, Sure he's upright and blameless because he's afraid of punishment, but afflict him and he'll curse you. So God lets Satan afflict Job, covers him in boils so that not only does he suffer physically but he is made into a social outcast.

His wife tells Job to curse God and die, that is, to recognize that God is not fair and be done with it. But Job continues to suffer without cursing God. His three friends come to visit and at first they commiserate with him his loss, but soon they get into an argument, because his friends are of the opinion that God is always fair - that if you obey the rules and do good then you will be rewarded, and if you are afflicted then it MUST mean that you have done something wrong. Job insists that he is innocent and has done nothing wrong. His friends grow more and more incredulous with every insistence and go from sympathetic to accusatory. It's understandable. If what Job says is correct, then their own worlds are put into doubt. So they start attacking him, insisting that God is always just and that his own refusal to repent is making things worse. It is THIS that Job cannot stand.

The loss of his property and children he put up with without complaint. Even the affliction against his health and social standing he took. But to be accused of wrong doing when he knew that he had not was too much for him. He is now convinced of what he was always afraid of in the back of his mind - the same fear that his friends have but will not acknowledge, instead getting all self-righteous on him. So he launches into his own diatribe, but against God, demanding that God account for God's actions.

God comes down and says, 'How dare you question God? Where were you when I made the Universe?,' etc To which Job of course has no answer. He acquiesces. At this point, other readers may still be thinking that whatever God does is right by definition, but some readers like myself are like what the heck? All God has done is claim that might makes right. God hasn't justified God's actions against Job and Job was RIGHT; Job did not do anything wrong.

But then God does a very surprising thing. God says that Jobs friends, the ones who were saying that God is always fair were liars, and implies (from my interpretation) that they were "Yes-men" - that they only defended God for fear of their own skins, and that ONLY Job spoke the truth about God. And God is so mad at Job's friends that he demands that they each provide Job with a portion of their own wealth, to appease God's wrath, in exchange for which Job will intercede with God on their behalf.

Job's wealth thereby begins to be restored, and God gives him new children. And the author goes to the trouble of telling you what Job named his new daughters. Women are rarely explicitly mentioned in the OT unless they do something wrong or something bad happens to them, so this is in and of itself noteworthy. And I can't remember the meanings of the names he gives his three daughters but they all have to do with beauty and happy, nice things.

And in the end of the story, Job is back where he was in the beginning - a well respected, wealthy man surrounded by family. Except for one thing. He no longer makes sacrifices in atonement for imaginary insults to a wrathful God. He lives his life happy, blameless and upright, and loving God without fear. By afflicting Job and forcing him to confront his fears, God released Job from them.

The point of the story of Job? It it's NOT that patience and unquestioning platitudes towards God are rewarded. In fact, quite the opposite. It's love of God for the sake of love of God. Not for desire for reward, nor for fear of punishment. Life is NOT fair. Bad things happen to good people (and vice versa). Get over it. Love anyway.

Well stated!