Book of Abraham

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POST ONE

Hi Watchmen : If you look up the definition of "rant" , it is a tirade. You and I are not having a tirade, but we are simply examining your historical claims you have made in the forum. That's all.

The question to you had to do with HOW Joseph Smith made so many correct historical correlations. I said : "It is a historical question and one of how deep and profound historical correlations appear in an entirely different era, all of the sudden, with unknown sourcing. It is an objective question that I am asking. Regardless of claims of error unrelated to the authentic correlations, how does Smith make these many complicated but correct correlations with early christian theology?"

NONE of you comments have given readers any data; no insight, no explanation, no help in understanding the actual question I asked. In post #11, you say "these are mere coincidences" but you don't answer the question as to HOW Joseph can generate hundreds or thousands of those correct historical coincidences that coincide in such correctness and depth and harmony with early religious histories that he had no access to.

After I gave examples of early Literature, and asked you to answer the question as to how he could do this, you simply answered : "He didn't. The literature disputes the claims." Though you are now refusing to discuss the "literature" you say "disputes the claim". In post #20, you still do not answer this question as to how Joseph was Able to create the hundreds of profound, discrete correlations and restorations with early Judeo-Christian doctrines and beliefs and to organize them into their correct context and then to place them into a mature form that coheres and is logical and creates a finished version of hundreds of early principles and traditions which he had no sourcing for. How does he do this.

Though you claim the "Literature disputes the claims", even after I gave readers multiple, obvious, discrete examples in multiple posts and asked you to describe your "Literature" you are referring to, your only comment In post #20 is, "...the simple fact is Joseph Smith was wrong about the papyri." You are simply repeating your party line. Where is the literature support for your claim? Please tell us you are not simply whining and trolling for argument without having any real literature or support for your claims.

While you are gathering your thoughts and looking through whatever historical "literature" you have, perhaps I offer the context of this discussion so far and ask another question.

Readers, What we are now discussing is the Claim Watchmen has made that Joseph Smith did not, restore early doctrines. We are speaking of a Book Joseph Smith produced called "The Pearl of Great Price" and the book of Abraham within that book. The book purports to be part of a process of restoration of authentic early Judeo-Christian religion transmitted directly into our day and all at once. The book was produced in the early 1800s. This is a time before many of the great discoveries of early religious literature were either made or available. I quoted from much of this literature which, in the main, only becomes available in the century AFTER Joseph Smith lived. That is, 19th century discoveries such as Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hamadi, Onychrhynchus, Various Enochs, Apocalypse of Abraham, etc were, in the main available after Joseph died.

While Watchmen gets ready to provide his literature to support his claims, below are some examples of the literature supporting my claim that Joseph Smith did reference and restore authentic early Religion. How did he do it without revelation?

"QUOTE" of first post to Watchmen :
"The problem with suggesting superficial examinations of complex historical issues, is that superificial examinations decrease rather than increase accuracy of historical conclusions.

For example, the simple and superficial conclusion that Joseph Smith might have made mistakes tells us nothing about how Joseph Smith accomplished the things he accomplished. For example, Consider the correct and authentic historical themes of Smith version of the Book of Abraham found just within the first chapter. There are more examples of concurrence with early abrahamic literature, I simply took these from the first chapter of the book of abraham.

Joseph Smith correctly places Abraham into a milieu of Idolatry.
He correctly describes Abraham’s FATHER’S worship of idols.
He describes the construction of idols (including both stone AND wooden idols)
He includes the theme of children being sacrificed.
He points out that those who will not worship idols were killed.
He includes the theme of Abraham himself being brought to be killed or sacrificed.
He includes the association of Terah with the attempt to kill Abraham.
He includes the binding of Abraham.
He includes the theme of Abraham being rescued by an angel (or by God) from death
He includes the little known theme that altar and idols were destroyed (though Islam has history on this subject)
He includes subtle details regarding Abraham’s prayer to be saved.
Joseph includes the details regarding Abraham being heir to the Priesthood.
He correctly links Abraham to Noah ( other than historians, how many know of this connection?)
He included the “smiting” of the priest who was to kill abraham.
He includes the improbable (yet authentic) history of Abraham’s knowledge of astronomy (including the details of having learned from ancient records and from God’s teaching.
He includes the relatively unknown traditions about Abraham having taught astronomy.
He includes Abrahamic knowledge regarding the creation of the universe and this world.
He includes Abraham’s claim to have records of the ancients.
He includes a claim that Abraham left his own records for others.
He includes the almost unknown (even today) history of the founding of Egypt.
He includes the rare tradition of the Abrahamic Pharoah’s descent from Ham and Canaan.
He even includes the tradition of Abraham having sat on a king’s throne.

AND WE’VE NOT LEFT THE FIRST CHAPTER

Suppose Smith did not receive revelation in his production of the doctrines and history within the book of Abraham and Book of Moses. How did he accomplish the historical restorations he got correct? Most of these correlations come from abrahamic texts Smith would not have had access to (even modern non-historians know almost nothing of early abrahamic youth literature and its traditions. How did Smith get them?)

SECOND POST TO WATCHMEN :

Watchmen, your claim that there are “other errors” does not answer my second question.

Anyone can explain how a 4 year old makes mistakes if attempting to build an automobile from parts, It is difficult to explain how the same 4 year old can do it without training. You believe Joseph Smith made mistakes, but this does not explain how he actually did the task of restore ancient principles and ancient historical teachings he had no access to.

My point to LDS readers and others is that regardless of whether the record is translated or revealed, the doctrinal CONTENT of this history make impossible and correct historical connections with histories unavailable or undiscovered in Smith’s time. It also discusses historical and religious doctrines which were completely unorthodox in Smith’s time, yet were discovered to be correct only AFTER smith’s century. Smith includes both amazing and subtle histories of Abraham,

for example: Regarding this history in the Peal of Great Price (the Book in which the Book of Abraham find’s itself..), the reference to Abraham’s youth is barely mentioned in the bible, yet Smith places the context of Abraham’s youth squarely in the midst of Abrahamic youth histories that he could not possibly be aware of. Though many ascension histories have only been discovered or available since Smith’s death, still Smith’s version of Abraham’s vision and ascension is by far the most clear of any of the several version available in our century and it is indisputably the most complete of any. How did Smith accomplish this? For examples :

The contextual references to the eternal cosmology of the Priesthood as a perpetual and pre-creation principle and certainly as it relates to Abraham was unknown in Smith’s day (and few historians are very familiar with it even nowadays) and would have had to been a complete “shot in the dark guess” as a new religious principle in Christianity. Not only was this new principle unrefuted, it is supported by the early Judao-christian records available AFTER Smith’s day and age.

The references to the creation saga and the purpose of God’s creation are more profound, and more descriptive and instructive of man’s relation to God than any other record of its type I’ve ever seen. The relationship of the pre-mortal Jesus to his Father and to creation has been debated FOR CENTURIES, yet it is clearly and neatly exposed in the pre-creation history contained in Smith’s version of Abraham’s vision AND is contextually accurate and comparable with early judao-christian texts and ancient christian teachings that are available. Even the early Christian Abbaton history is not as complete (though I think it is as clear...) Even the famous Apocalypse of Abraham history, which only few are aware of, even today, is not as clear and descriptive as Smith’s version of the same history.

The enmity between Lucifer and the Father (and all who follow the father) is given clear contextual explanation AND it is consistent with multiple Judao-Christian records such as Abbaton and even Islamic histories.

The doctrines of Pre-existence of Matter being used in creation, and even the subtle description of matter being “commanded” and “obeying” are present in Smith history. This was NOT an orthodox doctrine at Smith’s time, yet has only been shown to be consistent with early orthodoxy AFTER Smith’s lifetime.

The same is true of the doctrine of Pre-mortal existence of the spirit (intelligences) of men that is so obvious in this history.

How could Smith have hit exactly the mark on so many “unorthodox” points that are only discovered as being “orthodox ancient christianity” AFTER his death. Even the deeply subtle but important Cosmology and “orders” of heaven are explained with great clarity in his version of these histories. This specific doctrine of cosmology is not to be found in such clarity in the biblical record.

END QUOTE

 

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POST TWO

The initial examples continued :
"QUOTE"

Perhaps I can give other examples, not in any particular order, but as they come to me.

Smith’s version of this history begins in chapter one with a panoramic of Abraham’s situation and desires. Abraham says :

And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. 3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me. (Abraham 1:2)

The concept of a young and righteous Abraham, coming out of idolotry and seeking both the true God, and the principle of him receiving authority from God is woven into many histories unavailable to Smith :

For example the Apocalypse of Abraham’s version has Abraham telling Terah : “Listen Terah my father, I shall seek before you the God who created all the gods supposed by us (to exist)....who has given light to the moon and the stars with it, who had dried the earth in the midst of the many waters, who set you yourself among the things and who has sought me out in the perplexity of my thoughts? If [only] God will reveal himself by himself to us!” Apoc of Abraham 7:10-12; The same sentiments are repeatedly woven into such histories For example Jubilees’ Abraham not only searches but ask God to help him find him: “And he prayed on that night, saying,: “My God, the Most High God, you alone are God to me.....and do not let them lead me astray from following you, O my God; but establish me and my seed forever,,,,And do not let me walk in the error of my heart, O my God.” Jubilees (the book of division) 12:19, 20,21

The Apocalypse of Abraham text, After relating some of Abraham’s difficulties with his Idolatrous community (which Smith’s version authentically reproduces), has Abraham discover God in the clearest manifestation Abraham’s experienced yet : "Abraham, Abraham!” And I said, “Here I am.” And he said, “You are searching for the God of gods, the creator, in the understanding of your heart. I am he. (Apoc of Abr 8:1-4)

This is even more clear in Smith’s version : “And his voice was unto me: Abraham, Abraham, behold, my name is Jehovah, and I have heard thee, and have come down to deliver thee, and to take thee away from thy father's house, and from all thy kinsfolk, into a strange land which thou knowest not of;” Abr 1:16


SMITH’S VERSION OF ABRAHAM AND MOSES ASCENSION (I include Moses ascension because Smith text includes it and one has been discovered and is now available in our day)

The ancient ascension version has God promising Abraham that : “I will show you the things which were made by the ages and by my word, and affirmed, created, and renewed. And I will announce to you in them what will come upon those who have done evil and just things in the race of man.” Apo of Abr 9

Note the things Abraham is to see. Things made “by his word” (the ancient term for his son in this document), things created, and men and the justice they will ultimately undergo.

Smith’s Abraham relates that Abraham starts out relating that he “saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;” (more on this as we progress)

And the authentic order is of orientation of Abraham into the correct place and an orientation into time within the various orders. (Smith even gets the ancient geocentric and the hierarchal descriptions correct) Even dante, did not describe it better in HIS his rendition of how the ancient system relates "each [sphere] moving more slowly according to it’s distance from a central point (paradiso 28:34-36). In this correct historical context Smith’s version relates this principle of time as follows: “And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years.

6 And the Lord said unto me: Now, Abraham, these two facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and the set time, yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest, and the set time of the greater light which is set to rule the day, and the set time of the lesser light which is set to rule the night.
7 Now the set time of the lesser light is a longer time as to its reckoning than the reckoning of the time of the earth upon which thou standest.” 8 And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still; Abraham 3:5-8

And then God relates to him the “orders” and their relationship based on their habitations.

Apocalypse’s Abraham is shown intelligent, pre-creation spirits of mankind and is instructed to :“Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (Lit “formerly shadowed” - Gk skiagraphein) on this expanse, (and) the creatures which are in it and the age (ages) prepared according to it”.....3 And (I saw) there the earth and it’s fruit, and it’s moving things and it’s things that had souls, and it’s host of men and the impiety of their souls and their justification, and their pursuit of their works and the abyss and its torments and its lower depths and (the) perdition in it....6 and I saw there the garden of Eden and it’s fruits, and the source and the river flowing from it...7And I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.” Apo of Abraham ch 22

In this version abraham is told that some of these spirits will become evil, and other’s will become good, some will be his descendants : “And I said, “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council) and it became good before my face. And then, afterward, I gave them a command by my word and they came into existence. Whatever I had decreed was to exist they outlined to all, and all the previously created (things) came to stand before me.” 3 And I said, “O sovereign, mighty and eternal! Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?” 4 And he said to me, “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and after you.” some (who have been) prepared for judgment and order, others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age. 5 those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people.” Apoc of Abr 21:1-7 and 22:1-5;[ENDQUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

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POST THREE

Smith’s Abraham has the same vision of pre-creation spirit, including a broader context : Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made;.....22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (B of Abrahm 3:22)

The "choosing of Abraham" before he was born is a foreign concept to modern ex-nihilo theology, yet Smith places this history in it’s correct place in ancient religion. Just as Jeremiah was chosen before his birth,Abraham was chosen from the very beginning as well. The apocalypse history says it thusly: As soon as Abraham sees the pre-creation scene, he is also told “Know this that the Eternal One whom you have loved has chosen you. Be bold and do through your authority whatever I order you” (Apoc of Abr 14)

Speaking of what Abraham is to do “through your authority” (i.e. Abraham’s special authority given him of God), what does modern Christianity know about the connection between Abraham and the priesthood? How much information on this specific subject could Smith or anyone else have gained from texts available to Smith? Yet again, smith offers history that would have been scoffed at in his day and age, yet has a great deal of textual confirmation after his death.

THE ORDERING OF THE COSMOS

Smith’s version of how God teaches Abraham about the cosmos (i.e. how things are organized) parallels but is superior to the other versions we’ve discovered.

For example, regarding the differences and the orders of things, smith’s version has God teaching Abraham : 17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it. 18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. 19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

enoch is taught this very same lesson to oriented him to to time and space and the nature of intelligences (i.e. the order of things) : “And In everything I discovered differences: One year is more worthy than (another) year, and day (than) day and hour (than) hour. Similarly also (one) person is more worthy than (another) person: one because of much property; another because of superlative wisdom of the hear; and another because of intelligence....but no one is better than the person who fears the Lord. (2en 43:1-3)

Even the order of orientation is correct to the ancient pattern in Smith’s version.

Smith’s Abraham is taught the order of authority AND the orders of habitations. For example

"And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. (B of abr ch 3: 2-3)

The Testament of Adam reveals the same teaching regarding The heavenly powers: what they are like and how each of their orders is occupied in the service and the plan of this world.

“Listen, my beloved, as they are set in order one after another from the bottom, until we reach those who carry our Lord Jesus the Messiah and bear him up. The lowest order is the angels. And the plan has been revealed to it by God concerning every human being whom they watch over, because one angel from this lowest order accompanies every single human being in the world for his protection. And this is its service. 2 “The second order is the archangels. This is the service: directing everything in this creation according to the plan of God, whether powers or animals...and in short, whatever exists in this creation, besides human beings, they care for it and guide it. 3 The third order, which is the archons.... 4 The fourth order, which is authorities. This is its service: the administration of the lights, of the sun and the moon and the stars. 5 The fifth order, which is the powers. This is its service: they keep the demons from destroying the creation of god out of their jealousy toward human beings; ...6 The sixth order, which is the dominions. This is its service: they rule over kingdoms and in their hands are victory and defeat in battle. (TESTAMENT OF ADAM 4:1-6)

 

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POST FOUR

The point to the LDS is that Smith’s version of the Abrahamic history, even the small bit’s we’ve lightly touched on, could not have been a series of a thousand correct guesses. It’s not just the Abrahamic histories, but versions of Moses ascensions and Enoch have been discovered Since Smith died and he is “spot on” in those histories as well. He could not have made a thousand correct impossible guesses on those histories as well.

MORE ON THE TRANSMISSION/TRANSLATION OF SMITH’S VERSION OF THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM


1) THE ETERNAL NATURE OF GOD’S AUTHORITY OR “PRIESTHOOD” AND IT’S ORGANIZATION

Smith starts off his version of the Book of Abraham with an interesting and unexpected theme. Priesthood and Authority to speak and act as an agent of God : “ vs1 IN the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence; 2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. 3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me. 4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed. 5 My fathers having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the gods of the heathen, utterly refused to hearken to my voice; (B of Abr 1:1-5 - emphasis is mine)

The casual reader will miss the import of this pattern as a stamp of authenticity. It is more than eye opening to have the opening verses of Smith’s version of the Book of Abraham to have “Priesthood Authority” as an initial main theme, it’s a thunderbolt. It IS the underlying theme and principle that concerned the ancients because Authority from God underlies man’s partnership with God in the accomplishment of God’s eternal purposes. Without authority given them from god, the powers of god cannot be administered by man. Not any man. No one.

Not only that, but another unlikely but correct theme in Smith’s translation is the concept of priesthood being an ETERNAL principle, existing from the beginning (before creation of the earth). How does Smith guess correctly on such a principle which would have been completely unorthodox in Smith’s day, certainly unorthodox in the Christian Context, and especially in the protestant context? In fact, the concept of an eternally existing “organization” remains a principle MOST modern Christians are unaware of, yet the earliest Judao-Christian records place Smith’s version of Abraham precisely in the middle of ancient priesthood orthodoxy.

For example, Smith’s history of the pre-flood prophet named Enoch, places Enoch into the correct context of authority (which cannot be done by use of the Old Testament Alone). The Enoch texts made available after Smith’s death show us Smith was correct in this principle. For example : 1 Enoch not only claims that “...he [God] has created [Enoch] me and given me the (authority of) reprimanding.” (1En 20:14:3) but Enoch gets HIS authority, not from God the Father, but rather from the SON (another ancient pattern that Smith got right) :

“All these things which you have seen happen by the Authority of his Messiah so that he may give orders and be praised upon the earth.” (1En 37:52:4)

Few scholars even nowadays know such specific details of Authority in ancient Christianity. Yet Smith “nails it” perfectly in his history. (“con-artist indeed...) The concept of having true authority to act for God (amongst the counterfeits) was important to the ancients and thus this was the reason for making it clear that one HAD proper authority and it is also the reason that this concept is woven into so many of the ancient accounts.

It is perfectly consistent with the ancient pattern for Joseph Smith’s Abraham to seek for proper Authority just as it is for Enoch to make clear he acts under God’s authority. Enoch says : “I judged all the denizens of the heights on the authority of the Holy One...The princes of kingdoms stood beside me, to my right and to my left, by authority of the Holy One...” (3 enoch 16:1-2)

Thus it is an important stamp of authenticity that Smith’s history has Abraham ALSO seeking to have proper authority as a prophet of God. This is EXACTLY what Abraham does in Smith’s version of this history: Smith’s Abraham says : ‘I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed..... (Abr 1:4)

and God answered : “ Behold, I will lead thee by my hand, and I will take thee, to put upon thee my name, even the Priesthood of thy father, and my power shall be over thee. (Abr 1:18)

Smith’s version of Abraham correctly places Abraham in an eternal line of Authority AND importantly, he describes Abraham as receiving the authority from the Son and NOT directly from the Father. It is the same cascade of Authority as Clement taught anciently when he said “The Apostles received the gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus the Christ was sent from God. So then Christ is from God, and the apostles are from Christ...Having therefore received their orders...” 51:42:1-2)

This doctrine regarding the cascade of Eternally existing Authority, from God the Father, through his Son as Administrator is woven into ancient teachings, ancients texts, even the hellenistic synogogal prayers confirms Smith’s version as an authentic ancient doctrine : The one who is, Master, Lord, God the Almighty; the only one without origin and without a king;...7 the God and Father of your only Son, our God and Savior, the maker of the whole universe through him; 8 the Administrator, the Guardian, ....You are the one who marked out beforehand, from the beginning, priest for dominion over your people: 11 Abel at first, Seth and Enos and enoch and Noah, and Melchezedek and Job; the one who showed forth Abraham... (From HELLENISTIC SYNAGOGAL PRAYERS - #9 A Prayer of Praise to God for his greatness, and for His appointment of Leaders for His People (AposCon 8.5.1-4) )

(The LDS will also recognize in this prayer that the AGENT of creation was different in ancient orthodoxy from modern orthodoxy - another impossibly correct “dead ringer” that Smith makes.)

 

[Clear]

Once we got to this point, and you said the literature disagreed, I offered readers 3 more posts JUST ON Joseph Smiths SINGLE DOCTRINE OF PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS and it's place in early Judeo-Christian religion, it's import and the many, many philosophical and religious controversies a return to this doctrinal awareness solves.

IF you really and truly don't have any information or insight to support your position, now would be a good time to admit this rather than to string readers along, only to discover you are only going to offer "one liners" and don't really have any data. Meanwhile, I await your literature that shows pre-mortal existence of spirits was not an authentic restoration of early religion.


Regarding your interpretation of the Bird as "“The spirit or “ba” of Hor (The deceased fellow)”.

I've mentioned that other Egyptologists disagree with this interpretation. For examples : Deveria says the bird is “the soul of Osiris under the form of a hawk,..., Spaulding also accepts Deverias authority. Petrie says the bird “is the hawk Horus”. Breasted says the bird represents “Isis” in the hawk form. Sayce, mace, and Mercer were either unable or unwilling to commit to a meaning of anything in the facsimile. Who is your Egyptologist you are referring to and why is your interpretation you offer readers more valid than the interpretations of these famous Egyptologists?

Watchmens response in post #18 is : “Because based on my online research of the issue, many of the Egyptologists (not LDS apologists) say the same thing. “

So, you are saying that your “online research” shows a concensus? Really? Your online research agrees with you but the world class Egyptologists say your are wrong. My question has always been why YOUR interpretation is more correct than Deveria, or Spaulding, or Petrie, or Breasted who re NOT lds apologists. Why are these famous egyptologists wrong, but you are right in offing your interpretation to forum readers?


In any case Watchmen, I hope your own spiritual journey is good and happy.

Clear
δρσεφω

 

[Watchmen]

He didn't restore anything. It's a farce. You're not citing world class Egyptologists. You only think you are because you believe. And, yes. You are ranting.

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF THREE
Readers

While we are waiting for Watchmen to describe how his internet “research” provides readers superior interpretations than those of multiple egyptologists who disagree with his interpretation, and while we wait for his literature supporting his theory why multiple examples of ancient Christian doctrines brought back into religious consciousness are not a restoration of these early views into modern religious consciousness, I thought we might as well continue with more examples of very early religious doctrines which Joseph Smith refers to and which were brought back into modern religious consciousness. Notice that the vast majority of quotes come from ancient Judeo-Christian textual witnesses that were written by early Judeo-Christians describing their own beliefs.

Watchmen and I are traveling in opposite doctrinal directions based on our personal data and biases. He is in the process of dismissing the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (mormons), while I am in the process of embracing the very same doctrines he dismisses. While he has not shown readers his data sets, I still want to offer data as to why I think the earliest Judeo-Christian doctrines and a restoration of them has doctrinal advantage.

For example, I grew up in a native christian church that DID teach the common modern Christian theory that all men must “accept” Jesus before they died, otherwise they were consigned to a terrible fire-filled hell. The Christians in my native church were uncomfortable with this doctrine because of the inherent and obvious unfairness of punishing billions of individuals who died, never having the chance to accept nor reject Jesus in this life (i.e. those who lived and died without hearing of Jesus, the infant who died, the mentally infirm who died, etc.). Many of us did not truly believe what our pastors taught, but we had no specific or concrete alternative belief to replace that doctrine.

The Clear, specific and concrete LDS restoration and return to the early doctrine that ALL individuals are given sufficient chance for this knowledge and the accurate mechanism accomplishing this is, to me, another attraction to a return to ancient Christian doctrines on this specific subject.

And, just as a return to the multiple early doctrines of within the Genre of the doctrines of Pre-mortal existence had profound implications and insight (as demonstrated in posts 7-11, and specifically, posts 15-17), a return to the early genre of early Judeo-Christian Post-Death doctrines has multiple, similar profound implications regarding God’s fairness. For example :


REGARDING THE ANCIENT CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT


“THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”
In describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment both writers and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion. For example the description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2En 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.

Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)

All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. The prophet Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades" (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). But more on this later.



ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)

In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. : “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)

“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .

“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)

None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). The LDS (mormon) scripture relates the same principle regarding this spirit world and, speaks of these spirits who "mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance, For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage." Thus it was often referred to as a "prison" of sorts.



THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES

In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :.”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)

Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.

In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?... And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)


SPIRITS ARE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals.

For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law : “Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)

It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood (as the Latter Day Saints claim), that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc.

From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.

The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches, but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.

Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip) and it is important to know that these bodiless individuals cannot BE “dipped in water”. If they are to receive this covenant as mortal men are able, there must be a mechanism for the bodiless to do so.

 

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GOSPEL PRINCIPLES ARE TAUGHT TO THOSE PRESENT


The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death
Just as the doctrine of Sheol or Hades is mirrored by modern LDS doctrines, the descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.

One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks he risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)

The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection : "Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

Quote:

“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world. The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”


Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.


In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.

The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “


SONS OF SYMEON BELIEVE, CONVERT AND BECOME WITNESSES OF GOSPEL PRINCIPLES

The sons of Symeon testify : “All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)

Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.” The ancient Christian pattern was that baptism was required of all who could do it and there was a reason the covenant was given BEFORE teaching or testifying. I do not think even one of a thousand LDS have ever read these early Christian histories, yet they understand exactly what is happening and why these dead who were resurrected were sent to be baptized FIRST before anything else. I’ve never seen another group that “speak” the ancient doctrinal language like the LDS. (How many others even know or understand this stuff?)

There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, impressively, they continue to mirror the LDS doctrine that the dead may receive the gospel knowledge.

First, Perpetua relates : “my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)

Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.

“Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’

Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”

 

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Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates :
“After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.


It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.


Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates :“After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.

The context of the text is that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.

After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that : “During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”

Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. Had he been resurrected with Jesus as the brothers of Symeon had, he might have been sent to the Jordan (or to a real and physical font) to have been baptized in the same manner the other resurrected dead were sent to be baptized at the earliest opportunity.

Just as Dinocrates had been given gospel truths in the spirit world, the gospel must be preached to ALL others who did not have it in this life. This WAS the ancient Christian Doctrine. The Apostle Peter also understood what Perpetua understood. Thus he said "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

While readers that are not historians of the early Christian eras and their texts may not be familiar with these many, many discrete and detailed principles, they can see the import of a mechanism for providing a chance for all who live, to hear the gospel and that none are condemned without having an adequate chance to hear and accept and live gospel principles.

The LDS readers will easily see that these ancient principles are parallels of the version taught to them in sunday school classes every week. And they will see in almost every single sentence from ancient texts, other parallel, discrete points that I have not even pointed out nor made mention of.

The fact that these ancient doctrines and traditions and teachings from ancient Judeo-Christian Textual witnesses parallel their own LDS doctrines and traditions and teachings means that they once existed and are now exist again within the consciousness of a christian movement.

A return to these earliest Judeo-Christian doctrines (which the LDS will recognize as their own, standard teachings which are part of the restoration of early Doctrines accomplished by Joseph Smith), provide a mechanism for the vast majority of mankind who has lived upon the earth and who have never heard of Jesus (and thus could not accept his gospel), to have a just opportunity to be taught the gospel to their understanding and allow them the choice of what they will believe or not.

From the first time that I discovered the vast number of discrete and concrete and profound connections and parallels between the early Judeo-Christian doctrines and their counterparts restored and brought into modern religious consciousness, I continue to be amazed at the LDS connection to ancient Christian Doctrines. I am becoming increasingly grateful that the LDS are trying to restore ancient doctrines and their benefits to a Christian world who currently teaches there is no hope for the dead who’ve not heard of Jesus.

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[Watchmen]

Another rant. The facsimiles are wrong. Your rants don't prove otherwise.

 

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I might as well offer more data regarding ancient Judeo-Christian concepts that have been brought back into the religious consciousness of Christianity which Joseph Smith explained and illumed. I have, already given multiple examples in multiple posts of Joseph Smith creating a version of the Apocalypse of Abraham that agrees in multiple discrete details many years before this book was even discovered, translated and available to the public. The same can be said of his Enochian literature;. Multiple Enochs now have been discovered (e.g. Dead Sea scrolls, greek, and other enochs) which contain early Judeo-Christian themes brought to consciousness in the modern era through Joseph Smith.

I do not think that even the LDS members (mormons) are aware of how their modern framework discretely parallels the early Judeo-Christian teachings as found in early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses that describe early traditions and doctrines. I have given Pre-existence, and post spirit world examples (and only touched slightly upon mortality). Perhaps I can leave an example of how early Judao Christian texts form a framework for LDS theology concerning all of these principles in a coordinated form which the LDS believe in, but are historically unaware of the strength of their historical position.

An LDS poster idea once offered a quote from Joseph Smith, summarizing how these early principles coordinate and cohere in a rational and correct historical model. The model was simple, yet profound.

Joseph Smith explained : "The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. - Joseph Smith "

On the surface, the quote is so expansive that it is "too big a concept to handle". However, as I’ve broken it down and looked at it, it is completely consistent with the most ancient teachings regarding God, the Fathers, overall plan for man, (of which the atonement is the central mechanism for making the plan work.)

For example :
1) "...God...finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory..." (Joseph Smith)

PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF THE SPIRITS OF MANKIND

Joseph Smith’s restoration of this principle harkens back to the earliest testimonies and descriptions of the ancient scriptures and texts that describe the innumerable number of spirits existing in the beginning and what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits. I have already given many, many examples from early Judeo-Christian texts describing this doctrine in posts 7, 8, 9, and 10, as well as post 15, 16, and 17 in this thread dealing specifically with the restoration of this doctrine; its import, and the early models (which the LDS will see are the same base model they themselves possess). Here, I’ll simply refer to a quote from Enoch regarding pre-mortal spirits of mankind.

Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records :

"No one could come near unto him from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". 1 En 14:23; In other parts of Enochs’ vision he testifies : "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1 Enoch 40:1-2)" God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth in the future according to these ancient Old Testament scriptures. (Enoch still remains within the eastern Old Testament and Dead Sea Canons)



2) "...because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself..." (Joseph Smith)

THE ORIGIN OF THE PLAN TO POPULATE THE EARTH WITH MANKIND AND TO EDUCATE THEM IN MORAL AND SOCIAL PRINCIPLES THAT WILL PREPARE THEM FOR A SOCIAL HEAVEN

The ancient Jews taught that God had instituted a divine plan. This concept is interwoven into concepts that are stated repeatedly, such as "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (4Q255-264)

The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these ancient descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement in the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).

Quote: ....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)

Though ALL spirits existed in the beginning, they were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In this context Ignatius explains that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father.. (Ignatius :6:1).

The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations).

Diogenes reaffirms the LDS restoration of this ancient doctrine in Diogenes teaching us : "And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)


Ancient pre-creation council histories demonstrates that most of the spirits were joyous at having this opportunity to progress. For example the question God places to Job was not merely a rhetorical instruction, but a reminder of Jobs personal pre-creation theology. Quote: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

Enoch says that he saw : " the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. ‘

Who among these spirits viewing this spectacle would not have wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect?

It is of such a pre-creation council of spirits that Enoch testifies : Quote: " At that hour, that the Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, the Before-Time; even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will becomes a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles...All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him; they shall glorify; bless and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones...in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they may have life." (1 Enoch 48:1-7)

Long before Diogenes bore his New Testament Era testimony, Old Testament Era Enoch had bore the SAME visionary testimony: In Enoch’s vision, he see’s pre-creation Jesus with the Father and asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan: Quote:"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)

This is the testimony of Old Testament Enoch, it is the testimony of New testament Diogenes. It is the testimony of Joseph Smith. The parallels between the LDS restoration and the ancient teachings regarding the plan of salvation and the atonement continue even in discrete details the ancients taught. For example:



3) The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge (Joseph Smith)

The ancient texts form the foundation for the relationship of these various spirits of men, of angels, and of the Pre-creation Jesus to the “Father of Spirits” (as they called “The Lord God”). For example (though it's simply a gloss over what are deep concepts)


A) : The physical creation was accomplished in order to allow men to advance in knowledge:
Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles”) out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand”) to Administrate over this material creation of an earth which he will populate with embodied spirits for their education and testing.

 

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For example : The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that the plan is the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” He counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it is his plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283).

The Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught : “...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).

The physical creation of ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this process: “And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1). From chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed : Quote: “And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).

And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation. Quote: I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).

I think it is this closely unified and joint administration that contributes to much of the later confusion between Father and Son in later doctrines though the early texts it is taught that they are two individuals that are profoundly unified in PURPOSE.



B) . The Administrative organization was accomplished to allow men to advance in knowledge:

It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge. He says Quote: “For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. 2 Baruch 21:16-17

Changeable willful spirits were given a choice : In the ancient accounts, the spirits of men were allowed to choose to take part in this plan, just as they are allowed to choose what they will do in this life. I’ll skip the “war in heaven” and the controversy with Lucifer that was a central part of it and simply mention that there were recalcitrant spirits of which the Jews said : “God had not chosen them from ancient eternity. Before they were created (in the body), he knew what they would do. “ (Geninza A+B 4Q266) “ still, even of the less valiant spirits they said :“he taught them through those anointed by the Holy Spirit…”.

There were important principles underlying this fairness. For example, though God knows their nature, they needed to discover their own nature. God said : Quote: “And I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘This is good for you, but that is bad’; ...so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature.”... (2 enoch 30:15-16)

Even those who are to remain unrewarded, are to learn why they remained unrewarded. “It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the Law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding." (2 baruch 15:5-6).

This principle the ancient taught that “before he created them He knew their thoughts…” (geninza) is not just true of the wicked spirits, but it was also true of the good and valiant spirits as well. Jeremiah the prophet was told "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

Thus, God’s planning extended not merely to such great roles as prophets, but in teaching his son’s the nature of the souls agreement to come to earth, Enoch taught his sons regarding the “covenant of God, while they are even in their mother’s womb....that even before any person was in his mother’s womb, individually a place I prepared for each soul, as well as a set of scales and a measurement......” As if to make sure his sons understand the import of this doctrine, Enoch repeats the same doctrine again in just a few lines: “For I am swearing to you, my children, that before any person existed, a place of judgment was prepared for him and the scale and the weight by means of which a person will be tested were prepared there ahead of time. " (2 enoch 49:1-3)

Thus the Jewish Dead Sea Scroll that speaks of this plan to “refine them” (the spirits of men) was not forced upon anyone, but all who are here, agreed beforehand, to come to this life.

Since studying the LDS restoration of Ancient and precious things and offering my observations and comparisons to the ancient teachings of the Jews and Christians, I feel like we are necessarily skipping over deep and portentous doctrines, like a rock, skipping across the surface of deep doctrinal waters, touching only lightly upon a point here and there.



4) “He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.“ - Joseph Smith


MORTALITY AS A METHOD TO TUTOR AND GIVE EXPERIENCE TO MANKIND AS PART OF THEIR MORAL EDUCATION

There are important principles underlying this statement : For example
1) Mortality is a time of INSTRUCTION and LEARNING
2) Specific knowledge is requisite to save us in the world of spirits
3) How is it that God teaches knowledge that will save us
4) What is the end result of Learning to live the principles that save us




1) Mortality is a time of INSTRUCTION and LEARNING

Thus, the ancient doctrine places mankind in the position of Students, who are to learn the principles God is trying to teach them. Thus Clement II teaches that “we are being trained by the present life” (2 clement 20:2) Thus Ignatius is correct to say to the Ephesians, “I speak to you as my fellow students. For I need to be trained by you in faith, instruction, endurance, and patience. (Ig-eph 3:1 The Apostle Peter’s protégé Clement taught that “through him [Christ] the Master [the Father] has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge”.

New Testament Era Diogenes makes clear that without this “immortal knowledge”, there IS no basis for eternal life. He taught : Quote:
“But the tree of knowledge does not kill, on the contrary, disobedience kills. For it is not without significance that the scriptures record that God in the beginning planted a tree of knowledge and a tree of life in the midst of Paradise, thereby revealing that (eternal) life is through knowledge...For there is neither life without knowledge, nor sound knowledge without true life; therefore each tree stands planted near the other. (Diog 12:2-3)

It is significant that early accounts call Eden’s tree of “knowledge”, the tree of “wisdom”. In Enoch’s vision of heaven he says : “... And the tree of wisdom, of which one eats and knows great wisdom, (was among them)....This very thing is the tree of wisdom from which your old father and aged mother, they who are your precursors, ate and came to know wisdom; and (consequently) their eyes were opened...” (1Enoch 32:6) And, importantly, the type of wisdom that is gained, includes the type of moral knowledge man was sent here to learn (“there is no [eternal] life without knowledge”).

 

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2) Specific knowledge is requisite to save us in the world of spirits

Not all TYPES of knowledge have equal value in learning principles that will bring us joy and harmony in the eternities. The ORDER in which we learn principles is important as well. For example, learning moral laws which underlie and support social harmony are more important than knowledge of how to wage successful war against an another. Learning how to hurt another person, before learning patience to control that knowledge will still not result in joy and harmony, but may result in sadness and disharmony.

When Clement taught that “through him the Master has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge”, he was speaking primarily of moral principles that support a more exalted and glorified existence (i.e. moral and social rules of living in joy and harmony in heaven).

For example: They ancient were taught to learn UNITY

“Focus on unity, for there is nothing better” (Polycarp 1:2). “...let there be one prayer, one petition, one mind, one hope, with love and blameless joy...let all of you run together as to one temple of God, as to one altar, to one Jesus Christ...” (Ignatius to the Magnesians 7:2) For example, when congregations achieved unity, Ignatius honors them : Quote: “I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the father, that all things might be harmonious in unity. (Ign to eph 5:1)

This was NOT taught simply to the Christians, but to the Jews as well. For example, in the Dead Sea Scroll “CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION” (1QS, 4Q, 5Q), the translators decided not to use the word “community” throughout the translation to describe this group, but rather they used one of the society’s most common self-designations: “YAHAD”, which means “unity”. It was after all, the moral ideal they sought to achieve and the word they used to describe themselves and their higher aspirations.

This is no different than the christian teaching “ Let there be nothing among you which is capable of dividing you, but be united ....with those who lead..” (Ign to Mag 6:2). The principle of UNITY and HARMONY were principles that ALL disciples were taught just as “ the archangels who are over the angels...harmonize all existence, heavenly and earthly...” (2nd Enoch 19:3).

If spirits could NOT learn to overcome their undisciplined impulses, there could BE no harmony in heaven, or on earth). This was the pattern Jesus and the Apostles set. Just as Jesus was obedient to HIS Father, the church was to be obedient to their authorities. “Be subject to the Bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ in the flesh was to the Father, and as the apostles were to Christ and to the Father, that there might be unity, both physical and spiritual". (Ign to Mag 13:2).

The concept of obedience, and “unity” and “oneness” is woven throughout all the ancient texts. When a man “leaves his parents” he is to become “one” (unified) with his wife (Gen 2:24) to the point that Jesus says that the “man and his wife are no longer “twain” but are “one” flesh (matt 19:6). Jesus requests of his Father regarding his disciples that he had “given them the glory that you [the Lord God] gave me, that they may be one as we are one “(NIV jn 17:23). The same unity of which Jesus has with his Father, the disciples were also to achieve (and all the rest of us as far as we are able to emulate Jesus and the disciples). For example: Jesus prays in Jn 17:20, “I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.”,

If you remove the adherence to this principle of unity, the sociality in heaven cannot BE, nor REMAIN “unified” and “harmonious”. And all who live there MUST live this principle that God is attempting to teach man.

If the atonement is to bring men back to the presence of God, in a more exalted condition; able to live in a holy heaven, then the atonement must also have a mechanism to teach men to live the principles of a heavenly existence. The LDS restoration of these ancient teachings makes clear these ancient teachings regarding what God is doing with man and their relationship to the Atonement of our Savior, Jesus Christ.



"He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits."- Joseph Smith

I believe that the LDS return to ancient principles of learning religious principles is important in understanding what God is doing with man, and man’s role and responsibility to the atonement. One may, for example, compare the modern christian theory that "Grace renders repentance obsolete" to the earliest Christian Doctrines regarding repentance. The ancient and authentic principle of repentance acts as a "reality check" to all modern theories.

Repentance, as a true and authentic early Christian principle is often mis-characterized by those who do not understand it, or those wanting to discredit it. Repentance, as a process of "doing better" (and the process of change it entails) is not an "all or nothing" proposition. One of the earliest Christian documents, the Didache counsels : "If you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect. But if you are not able, then do what you can." (Didache 6:2) Since we all are imperfect, we all "do what we can". The LDS seem to understand and correctly apply this concept to the ultimate goal of perfection.

The early Christians taught that, however poorly we do it, we are meant to try to be more like God. For example: The very first thing Ignatius teaches the Christians in Ephesus (verse ONE) is "You are the imitators of God" (Ignatius 1:1). This is NOT a complicated principle and it never was. Diogenese teaches the Christians that Quote: "By loving him you will be an imitator of his goodness. And do not be surprised that a person can become an imitator of God; he can, if God is willing....But whoever takes upon himself his neighbor’s burden, whoever wishes to benefit another who is worse off in something in which he himself is better off, whoever provides to those in need things that he has received from God, and thus becomes a god to those who receive them, this one is an imitator of God." Diog 10:6)

We may "poorly" imitate God, yet still, we are to "imitate God" and be more like him. However, we cannot accomplish imitation without repentance, since, (as Clement taught the earliest Christian Saints), repentance was related to the ability to "...accept correction" and that "it unites us with the will of God" (1Clement 56:2).

Repentance was not a new principle inaugurated by ancient Christians. Rather the Christians taught that "repentance [was] taught in all generations" (1st Clement 7:5-7) . Similarly, the lds restore and re-affirm Repentance back into it's rightful and ancient context and usage in this process of learning to imitate God. It restores Repentance to it’s role in the process of understanding, and advancement and learning to be more like him.

In Hermas’ vision, the angel speaking to Hermas says "...I give understanding to all who repent. Or don’t you, think" he said, "that this very act of repentance is itself understanding? To repent, " he continued, "is great understanding. For the man who has sinned understands that he has done evil in the Lord’s presence, and the act which he committed enters his heart, and he repents and no longer does evil, but does good lavishly, and he humbles his own soul..." (Hermas 30:2) Repentance is not simply a punishment of self, but rather a process of acquiring knowledge, acquiring understanding; acquiring new attitudes and new and better habits of interaction. It is a blessing to men.

It is clear to the ancient Christians that a loving and patient God knows we will make mistakes in his process of "creating righteousness". Diogenes explains to the ancient Christians : Quote:"So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his Child, he permitted us during the former time to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient " (Diog 9:1)

It is clear that God allows men to make mistakes, not because he approved of such behaviors, but because he never loses sight of his ultimate Goal of creation. Diogenes continues : Quote:"...because he was creating the present season of righteousness, in order that we who in the former time were convicted by our own deeds as unworthy of (eternal) life... having clearly demonstrated our inability to enter the kingdom of God on our own, might be enabled to do so by God’s power. (Diog 9:1)

Thus God is creating moral improvement by this process (and at the same time demonstrating our inabilities and the necessity of reliance on him for what we are unable to do).

 

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The Jews also taught that God allows evil for the same reason, (i.e. because it serves his ultimate purpose). The Jews taught :Quote:" Until now the spirits of truth and perversity have contended within the human heart. All people walk in both wisdom and foolishness. As is a persons endowment of truth and righteousness, so shall he hate perversity; conversely, in proportion to bequest in the lot of evil, one will act wickedly and abominate truth. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the time of decree and renewal. He foreknows the outworking of their deeds for all the ages [of eternity]. He has granted them dominion over humanity, so imparting knowledge of good and evil deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him until the day of the appointed visitation. (1QS, 4Q, 5Q "Jewish Charter")

Though evil exists, it serves it’s purpose in HIS plan and he controls and appoints it’s limits. It is not "chess set theology" where God plays man and then punishes him for "bad moves", but rather, man is allowed his own choice and man appoints his own desires regarding evil.

The LDS have restored the ancient understanding that temporary evil IS a part of the plan as well as the temporary difficulties that result from it. This restoration does not change evil. But it explains it and its relationship to current difficulties. This is important when individuals ask the inevitable questions : "Why me?", or "How long oh Lord?".
　
This life is like "Enoch’s Bridge" that all must pass over. "Just as a bridge is laid across a river and everyone crosses over it, so a bridge is laid from the beginning of the entrance to it’s end, and the ministering angels go over it... (3rd enoch 22:1)" It is the similar answer to Ezra’s ancient question : "If the world had indeed been created for us, why do we not possess our world as an inheritance? " The ancient answer God gives Ezra is simply another description of Enoch’s bridge. God explains that Quote:"There is a city built and set on a plain, and it is full of all good things; but the entrance to it is narrow and set in a precipitous place...and there is only one path... If now that city is given to a man for an inheritance, how will the heir receive his inheritance unless he passes through the danger set before him? ..."And so the entrances of this world were made narrow and sorrowful and toilsome; the are few and evil, full of dangers...But the entrances of the greater world are broad and save, and really yield the fruit of immortality. Therefore unless the living pass through the difficult and vain experiences, they can never receive those things that have been reserved for them..." (4th Ezra 7:3-25)
　
From the beginning, the Judao-Christian texts describe a plan to place the spirits of men into bodies, give them knowledge and allow them to experience mortality with its various choices and let them exercise their own choice and preferences and then return them to that level of holiness they themselves chose. Since the resurrection is physical, the spirits are judged in reference to their bodies (and not separately).

From the beginning, the Judao-Christian texts describe a plan to place the spirits of men into bodies; to then give them knowledge and allow them to experience mortality with it’s various choices and let them exercise their own choice and preferences and then return them to that level of holiness they themselves choose. Since the resurrection is physical, the spirits are judged with their bodies (and not separately) as it says in the early Christian Adam and Eve text "So, the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirit and placing it into the body, he also judges them as one."

Enoch, compares the judgement as a marketplace, where proper scales ensure justice so that "...on the day of the great judgment every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward. (2 Enoch 44:5) Thus the ancients taught a gradient of judgement according to a scale. Without this doctrine, (which some of later christianity abandoned), the "light switch" condemnation of modern Christianity cannot be made fair. The ancient doctrine however, once re-adopted, restores fairness and justice to god’s Judgement.

The early christians taught regarding Heaven : Quote:"... those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundred fold, and those who bring forth sixty fold, and those who bring forth thirty fold : the first will be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the third will inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, "In my Father’s house there are many rooms"; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, the Son finally yielding his work to the Father, as it is also said by the apostle: "For he must reign until he puts all enemies under his feet" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 36:1-2)

The ancients taught that during the process of judgement, men will be resurrected and glorified according to "their own measure" (i.e. in a just and fair manner) and of those who’ve repented and have sincerely accepted the Atonement are made glorious and given a position of holiness and importance : For example, the jews taught that the righteous spirits and their : Quote: "...bodies, covered with worms of the dead, might rise up from the dust to an eternal council; from a perverse spirit to your understanding. That he might take his position before you with the eternal hosts and spirits of truth to be renewed with all that shall be and to rejoice together .... (Geninza A+B 4Q)

The ancient Christian teaching that men are to be "imitators" of God, reaches it’s culmination in the advancement of mankind who have become most like God in the judgement and resurrection. The Dead Sea Scroll "SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, (4Q, 11Q, Masada Fragment 367), describes the ancient Jewish teaching regarding those who are resurrected and glorified and who have fulfilled God’s plan for man’s destiny : Quote: "For He has established utter holiness among the eternally holy, that they might become for Him priests of the inner sanctum in His royal temple, ministers of the Presence in His glorious innermost chamber. In the congregation of all the wise godlike beings, and in the councils of all the divine spirits, .... that sage congregation honored by God, those who draw near to knowledge….priests who draw near, ministers of the Presence of the utterly holy King…His glory. Precept by precept they shall grow strong, to be seven eternal councils; for He established them for Himself to be the most holy of those who minister in the Holy of Holies…They shall become mighty thereby in accordance with the council…the Holy of Holies, priests of …these are the princes …who take their stand in the temples of the king…

The early Christians and Jews are very descriptive of the destiny of those who actually do become successful "imitators" of God to the point of becoming "Godlike". For example: The jews of 4Q, 11Q, Masada were very descriptive in this regard : Quote:
"Praise the most high God, you who are exalted among all the wise divine beings. Let those who are holy among the godlike sanctify the glorious King, He who sanctifies by His holiness each of His holy ones. You princes of praise among all the godlike, praise the God of majestic praise. Surely the glory of His kingdom resides in praiseworthy splendor; therein are held the praises of all the godlike…Lift his exaltation on high, you godlike among the exalted divine beings-His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens. Surely He is the utterly divine over all the exalted princes, King of kings over all the eternal councils.

The value of the earliest Judao-christian texts is that they serve both as a witness to early Judao-Christian interpretations of the Gospel message and they are often clear and detailed in their descriptions of early Judao-Christian interpretations and beliefs. The LDS interpretation of foundational principles will demonstrate the thousands of close parallels and show that LDS theology is quite comfortable among this early Judao-christian orthodoxy.

As I have pointed out, the LDS can take multiple early Judeo-Christian texts and use them for Sunday school lessons in complete doctrinal comfort. Not only do the parallels exist, but the model came to the LDS in a mature and completed form over a short period of time.

Many of the greatest historians of these early periods and texts spent tens of years of research and discovery creating models of early Christian Theology. How does the uneducated farm boy, Joseph Smith carry into our era multiple, correct early theological models in a mature form, AND, do this in the early 1800s without similar access to Judeo-Christian texts that will not exist until the next century. Obviously bringing these early doctrines into modern religious consciousness is a restoration of the old, into a different era.

How he was able to bring ancient Judeo-Christianity into the modern era without source and to make so many correct restorations of so these many examples of early religious historical principles in such a mature form in such a short time is the question. The ancient texts speak clearly to LDS theology and the LDS theology speaks back to the early sacred religious texts and their witnesses. Both illuminate and explain each other.

Clear
φισιδρω

 

[Watchmen]

Broken record. Still no evidence that the facsimiles were translated correctly. Why? Because here is none. Joseph was wrong.

 

[Clear]

Post one of three

Watchmen,

The first response to your opening Post asked you only two questions. Your inability to offer any supporting response to them after 35 posts indicates the basic defects in the premise.

Question one : Why do you think you are offering good data to forum readers about the facsimile when Egyptologists disagree with your interpretation you offer readers ?

Your response that “on line research” was your qualification was never followed up by a single logical or coherent, supportive response or data demonstrating how the internet qualified you to offer your interpretation of ancient egyptian heiroglyphs. Thus, the only data readers were given does not support your interpretation at all.

For example, you interpret the “Bird” figure in the facsimile as “the ‘ba’ of Hor (The deceased fellow)” . If you simply google images of an egyptian “ba”, you will see that what you are calling the “ba” of Hor, is not a “ba of Hor” at all. It is not anything like the typical Hawk bodies seen in profile with the head of the dead person. In his translation of the “Book of the Dead”, Budge translates “ba” perhaps a hundred times in almost 700 pages of Egyptian translation. NONE of these hieroglyphs appear like your interpretation. Not one.

The truth is, you do not even know if your own interpretation is correct. The fact that you are willing to offer readers faulty and untested and bad information undermines your credibility and creates suspicion in your motives. This is not a good thing.

Even If you actually do authentic research you will then find that stock Egyptian meanings will not help you either prove or disprove Joseph Smiths claims on this point. IF, the Facsimile is a Hebrew story, and the Hebrew redactor used stock Egyptian symbols to tell a Hebrew story, then one cannot use a standard Egyptian meaning to understand what the original Hebrew author meant. It is impossible. How does one do this without more historical models? This may be one reason that after almost 200 years, the arguments continue.

The concept of mixing symbols from different languages is simple. Under my signature readers see various words in greek letters. However, greek readers will see them as gibberish since they are not greek words. They are german words using greek symbols. Similarly, if a Hebrew redactor tells a Hebrew story using Egyptian symbols, then the symbols will not have the original Egyptian meaning.



Readers and LDS :

Question two was : “How did “Joseph Smith” accomplish the historical restorations he got correct?

Watchmen was never able to answer this simple question either. One line pot-shots and denials are all he’s offered.

Even the criticism of “broken record” is incorrect. If one reads the data sets, it is not simply a repetition of data, but a progression of data that builds upon each other in a logical and coherent manner to create a historical set of belief which existed anciently and which were brought into our era in a detailed and complete and mature form.

For examples:

Post #3 was a simple overview of multiple examples of restored historical themes in Joseph Smiths “Book of Abraham” as evidenced by an ancient version of “The apocalypse of Abraham”. The examples involved multiple correct, discrete correlations with histories that were not discovered until the century after Joseph died.

Post #6 was a deeper comparison of profoundly important religious historical correlations between Smiths’ Abrahamic histories and other histories available only after his death (most from next century after Smiths death) I gave more examples of doctrinal CONTENT of early histories where Smith makes impossible and correct historical connections with histories unavailable or undiscovered in Smith’s time. Abraham’s youth is barely mentioned in the bible, yet Smith places the context of Abraham’s youth squarely in the midst of Abrahamic youth histories that he could not possibly be aware of.

For examples :
1) The contextual references to the eternal cosmology of the Priesthood as a perpetual and pre-creation principle and certainly as it relates to Abraham was unknown in Smith’s day
2) References to the creation saga and the purpose of God’s creation are more profound, and more descriptive and instructive of man’s relation to God than any other record of its type.
3) The relationship of the pre-mortal Jesus to his Father and to creation has been debated FOR CENTURIES, yet it is clearly and neatly exposed in the pre-creation history contained in Smith’s version of Abraham’s vision.
4) The enmity between Lucifer and the Father (and all who follow the father) is given clear contextual explanation AND it is consistent with multiple Judao-Christian records such as Abbaton and even Islamic histories.
5) The doctrines of Pre-existence of Matter being used in creation, and even the subtle description of matter being “commanded” and “obeying” are present in Smith history.


POST #7 Contained even more discrete historical examples :
1) Joseph Smiths version of Abrahamic history was compared to both the apocalypse of abrham and to biblical Jubilees and correlations discussed.
2) Comparisons were made to early Judeo-Christian texts and Abrahamic youth histories. Smiths version is consistent with them. The Young and righteous Abraham, comes out of idolatry, seeks and then finds the true God.
3) Correlations were pointed out in other literature, such as the early Judeo-Christian Ascension literature, involving Abraham and other prophets. It’s not just the orientation of Abraham into the correct place and an orientation into time within the various orders that Smith correctly described, but Smith even gets the ancient geocentric and the hierarchal descriptions correct.
4) Smith includes the abrahamic vision of iintelligent, pre-creation spirits of mankind/ including the early description of Abrahams revelation that some spirits were “prepared for judgment and order" And “others for revenge and perdition”


Post #8 Continues with a separate set of examples of historical correlations :
1) The choosing of Abraham by God in early histories : Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (B of Abrahm 3:22) vs : “…the Eternal One whom you have loved has chosen you. ” (Apoc of Abr 14). It mirrors Smith version.
2) The concept of Abraham and his relation to priesthood authority, the nature of religious authority itself mirror Smiths version.
3) THE ORDERING OF THE COSMOS and themes relating to creation also correlates and logically coheres to Smiths version.
For examples, even discrete principles, such as the ordering of intelligence, one above another correlates. (even the order of orientation is the same)
The organization of “the heavenly powers: what they are like and how each of their orders is occupied in the service and the plan of this world.”


Post #9 Continued with more examples from other types and genres of early Judeo-Christian literature. Since I had pointed out that it isn’t just Abrahamic literature that can be compared to Josephs materials, I offered material from still other ancient Judeo-Christian texts as well.
1) I discussed versions of Moses ascensions and Enoch have been discovered Since Smith died and he is “spot on” in those histories as well.
2) Both sets of texts relate the eternal nature of Gods authority or priesthood and its organization. Thus Smiths includes Abrahams statement of purpose “I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same…I became a rightful heir, a High Priest (Smith even uses the correct idiom of “rightful” heir, and not just “heir” (How many people even are aware of the significance of such idioms?)
3) Smith correctly describes the concept of priesthood being an ETERNAL principle, existing from the beginning (before creation of the earth). How does Smith guess correctly on such a principle which would have been completely unorthodox in Smith’s day,
4) The earliest Judao-Christian records place Smith’s version of Abraham precisely in the middle of ancient priesthood orthodoxy. I gave example of the early cascade of authority Smith gets correct : “...he [God] has created [Enoch] me and given me the (authority of) reprimanding.” (1En 20:14:3) but Enoch gets HIS authority, not from God the Father, but rather from the SON (another ancient pattern that Smith got right) :


Post #10 continues with further examples of early historical doctrines, teachings and traditions which Smith restored
1) The ancient concept of eternal authority and organization goes well against the modern “grain”, it WAS ancient orthodoxy. I gave examples from ancient texts.
For example : The concept of the church as an eternal organization was the early concept. “the Books and the Apostles declare that the church not only exists now, but has been in existence from the beginning (2 cl 75:14:3). Josephs model of redemption through a redeemer from the beginning is mirrored in Ignatious claim that “Christianity did not believe in judaism, but judaism in christianity” (i.e. the Jews USED to teach what WE now teach)
2) THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE OF CREATION FROM MATTER is yet another thematic restoration which is important. Most Christians STILL cling to “creation from nothing”. How does Smith know that it is correct to go against the teachings of his day when they still taught creation from nothing?
3) Even the details of early descriptions of the “Gods” (or “god-like” as the dead sea scrolls describes them) having to “order” matter and even using the term that the matter “obeyed” is faithfully reproduced in Smith’s version :

These are important restorations. SMITH’S correct return to the ancient doctrine of existence of spirits prior to being placed on earth does away with 1300 years of debate between philosophers and Christians as to why spirits are born unequal, Smith clobbers us by the simple return to creation from material, rather than from “nothing”. Thus Christians and Scientists no longer fight over the irrational and unscientific concept of creation from nothing. Even the theists who wonder why God created man are given insight through the simple return to ancient historical description of man’s relationship to God. Is it just another good guess by Smith? At some point, the perfect answer upon answer upon answer upon answer MEANS something. And it doesn’t mean random guesswork.

4) The ancient concept that God “...created the world for the sake of man, …” rather than for his own enjoyment or other purposes (Hermas 47:2-4 and 65:1-3)
5) Smith’s version not only reviews these same principles that creation was for man in authentic idiom, but adds the most profound insight of all to his version. It tells why : this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

 

[Clear]

post two of three

Post #15 – Here I changed from giving multiple summary examples to giving more detailed examples of a single Doctrine – In this case focused on just a single theme, : PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS OF MANKIND.
1) I offered quotes on this theme from many, different types of the earliest Judeo-Christian Literature and the importance of and effect of this doctrine in early Christian worldviews and how a restoration and re-adoption of this early doctrine changes the nature of Christian worldviews. Enochs version says ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1). This is the same doctrine Smith claimed.
2) The early texts described that spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. This was Smiths claim as well.


In post #16 I continued discussing the existence of, the logic and coherence the doctrine and gave multiple examples of its early version from early Judeo-Christian literature and how it changes basic Christian worldviews by returning to this doctrine. For example, In this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with moral defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time.

1) I gave examples from Jewish literature regarding the souls of mankind and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth.
2) I describes examples of how the abandonment of this doctrine has had many controversial and adverse effects for Judeo-Christianities who have abandoned it.
3) I described how early Judao-Chrisitan texts describe and demonstrate what the ancient Judeo-Christians believed and how these texts can be compared to LDS base doctrines on the same subjects in a very objective manner.

In post #17 I discussed the importance of knowledge of pre-creation conditions and the effects of a return to this early Judeo-Christian doctrines.

For example, I pointed out that many of the greatest existential questions concern the pre-mortal period of time. Without a knowledge and understanding of THIS time period, one cannot understand in context many of the greatest controversies and the most profound and sublime doctrines of Christianity.

1) The original purpose and plan of God and conditions under which he decided to initiate his creation have to do with this time period.
2) The most profound considerations concerning the origin of evil relate to conditions Prior to creation of the earth.
3) The nature of the devil and his fall from “heaven” has to do with the Pre-mortal time period. It isn’t simply the prophet Sedrach who asks God “If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? ” (Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7) Abraham also, asked God “How then, since he [Lucifer] is now not before you, did you establish yourself with (him)? “ (The Apocalypse of Abraham 20:5-7). Agnostics and atheist and even Christians ask this base question. The best contextual answers are to be found in pre-mortal/pre-earth creation conditions which Smith returned to.
4) The nature of and issues underlying the “war in heaven” have to do with the pre-creation period.
5) The role of the Fall of man in God’s plan has much to do with events PRIOR to Adam having been placed in the Garden.
6) The underlying reasons why some individuals are born into apparently arbitrary and unjust life scenarios are placed into a more understandable context by the greater data provided by conditions during the pre-mortal existence.
Knowledge of the pre-existence gives us much greater insight into controversies which have plagued non-pre-existent Christianities for over 1700 years. Many of these millennia-long debates are neatly answered, simply by a return to the early doctrines. This is part of the immense value of a restoration to early Christian Salvational doctrines.

I pointed out that my quotes came from multiple early sources such as :
The Old Testament
The New Testament
The apocalypse of Sedrach
The apocalypse of Abraham
First Enoch
Second Enoch
Third Enoch
Ecclesiates (Old Testament)
The Gospel of Thomas
The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra
Clementine Recognitions
Job (Old Testament)
The Second treatise of the Great Seth
Testaments of the twelve patriarchs (Napthali)
Jewish Haggadah (related to the Talmud)
early Christian Psalms
lectionaries
Hymns
diaries,
decensus literature
barnabas
apocalypse of baruch
the pearl
Synagogal prayers
and others

Watchmen then responded that these doctrines are “disputed” but was then unable to offer even a single quote from any data to support the claim that these doctrines were “disputed” as being ancient.

Posts #21 – 25 WERE a repeat of some of the prior data with the intent of not losing context due to page change.


POST #27 was entirely new data set regarding more ancient doctrines which were brought back into modern religious consciousness through Joseph Smith. Since I had discussed Pre-mortal existence of spirits of Mankind as an ancient doctrine, these posts specifically discuss the doctrines of Post-mortal existence and ancient doctrines which Joseph Smith restored. For example, I grew up in a native christian church that DID teach the common modern Christian theory that all men must “accept” Jesus before they died, otherwise they were consigned to a terrible fire-filled hell.

REGARDING THE ANCIENT CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT
1) I started out discussing the various names of the post mortal worlds using dymas (the thief on the cross beside Jesus) as an example. Jesus promises dymas, “thou shalt be with me in paradise.” And enoch tells us that “paradise is in between the corruptible [mortality] and the incorruptible [heaven].” (2 En 8:5). We are speaking of the early doctrine of the world of spirits after they die (Hades, Sheol, Hell, spirit world, paradise, etc). Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
2) Joseph described that this world was divided into different moral classes. This post simply confirms this through examples of early Judeo-Christian literature offering the same description.
3) The ancient concept of the morally good, being placed with others of similar status and the moral “criminals” being kept with individuals who were like them was described as a more just and fair system.
4) The ancient concept of spirits being cognizant and aware of able to continue to make moral judgments and express free will was discussed.
5) A couple of early textual witnesses of individuals who had died and gone to this spirit world was discussed as evidence that this doctrine was represented in early Christian literature.


POST #28 Continued to discuss the early just concept of the gospel being taught to the dead spirits who had no opportunity to accept it in this life. The descriptions of this world and the discussion of its inhabitants with prophets and others who were in this world of spirits, teaching the gospel was discussed.
1) The justness of having a mechanism for providing an equal opportunity to hear the gospel whether one heard it in this life or not was discussed.
2) The concept of Adam being promised that he would also be redeemed was discussed.
3) Many of these ancient concepts were restored into modern consciousness. Though they are quite historical, they are not necessarily taught by most Christian churches today.
4) The nature of the bodily resurrection and the diary of a new convert to Christianity and her testimony that her dead pagan brother was also given the opportunity to partake of the “living waters” was discussed. (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity)
5) The concept of revelation among the normal membership of the Christian movement anciently was touched upon. This is not the case of a “broken record”, but rather we are passing over and summarizing deep and profound doctrines that are being, once again, brought to the consciousness of modern Christians.


Post #29
1) I finished the story of the early Christian convert, Perpetuas’ dead brother who had been given the living water after death and her story from this ancient diary and how Perpetua would have understood the Apostle Peters statement : "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)
2) I made the point to the LDS readers that they can easily see that these ancient principles are parallels of the version taught to them in sunday school classes every week. And they will see in almost every single sentence from ancient texts, other parallel, discrete points that I have not even pointed out nor made mention of.
3)The fact that these ancient doctrines and traditions and teachings from ancient Judeo-Christian Textual witnesses parallel their own LDS doctrines and traditions and teachings means that they once existed and are now exist again within the consciousness of a christian movement.

 

[Clear]

Post three of three

POST #31-34 also, was not a repeat of prior points, but an example that these ancient Judeo-Christian teachings not only form a logical, coherent and just belief system, but that the restoration of these teachings by historical discovery since Joseph Smiths time are not as mature and formed as the version he restored by revelation.
1) I used a single quote of Joseph Smith as an summary example of how he understood, coordinated and used these ancient concepts as a theological model.

Joseph Smith explained : "The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. - Joseph Smith "

2)Pre-mortal existence of spirits coordinates with other ancient principles to form a theological model where one asks what is God to do with intelligent and changing spirits that he loves? The logical answer is that he intervenes in their behalf to help them learn to live and sustain the happiest and most unified existence for the longest time possible. This is a coherent and logical model of existence. Thus it was that God saw it was proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself..." (Joseph Smith)
3) This post coordinated the concept of spirits of varying qualities have existence and God creating a plan to assist spirits in their moral education toward a heavenly existence. The ancient texts place Jesus in the center of the planning and administration of the Fathers’ plan.
4) The early texts describe the choosing of the redeemer as well as the circumstances which made redemption necessary.
5) The texts discuss material creation and places creation into that plan of God to advance man.

Post #32 Lightly summarized the creation of Earth and other material things from pre-existing, chaotic, disorganized materials.
1) discussed the concept of the moral education and moral insights man was to gain though the moral experience and well as the administration of this plan and the roles of prophets and ordinary mankind and the role of evil individuals in this plan.


POST #33 Discusses the types of knowledge which is destined to prepare us to live in a heavenly existence in harmony and unity forever.
1) We discussed Unity, as a base principle and coordinated this with the early concept that even the archangels who are over the angels...harmonize all existence, heavenly and earthly...” (2nd Enoch 19:3).
2) We discussed the value of the LDS return to ancient principles of learning religious principles is important in understanding what God is doing with man, and man’s role and responsibility to the atonement.
3) I compared the early doctrine and role of repentance to the modern christian theory that "Grace renders repentance obsolete" and how repentance relates to moral progression as a purpose integral to life.
4) I discussed the early concept that the current temporary age of unrighteousness plays a role in creating a future, eternal age of righteousness.


POST #34 discusses the opposites of truth and perversity and their contention “within the human heart” and the purpose of this contention inside the concept of free will in “deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him until the day of the appointed visitation. (1QS, 4Q, 5Q)

The ancient Judeo-Christian concept of just and proportional reward and just and proportional punishment was discussed (as opposed to a “light switch” reward of either the greatest heaven or the worst hell). That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward (2 Enoch 44:5)

The summary of our ultimate destiny in the goals of Gods’ plan for men to be “imitators" of God, reaches it’s culmination in the advancement of mankind who have become most like God in the judgment and resurrection. The Dead Sea Scroll "SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, (4Q, 11Q, Masada Fragment 367), describes the ancient Jewish teaching regarding those who are resurrected and glorified and who have fulfilled God’s plan for mankind becoming successful "imitators" of God to the point of becoming "Godlike". For example: The jews of 4Q, 11Q, Masada were very descriptive in this regard :. You princes of praise among all the godlike, praise the God of majestic praise. Surely the glory of His kingdom resides in praiseworthy splendor; therein are held the praises of all the godlike…Lift his exaltation on high, you godlike among the exalted divine beings-His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens. Surely He is the utterly divine over all the exalted princes, King of kings over all the eternal councils.


Clear
φυφινεω

 

[Watchmen]

Broken record. You still haven't offered evidence that the facsimiles were translated correctly. Why? Because there is none. Joseph was wrong.

 

[Prestor John]

Broken record. You still haven't offered evidence that the facsimiles were translated correctly. Why? Because there is none. Joseph was wrong.

You also offered no evidence explaining why your interpretation of the facsimile was correct over other Egyptologists.

You got owned here son.