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Book Discussion: The Principal Upanishads.

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree with @Aupmanyav. The translation in the link (which appears quite similar to the one we've been reading ITT) reads more smoothly and is much easier to understand that the translation posted ITT.

As I see it, this chapter is paramount to understanding Atman as the observer as well as understanding the nondual nature of Atman and Brahman.
The translation I posted was a more literal translation. The online one is more easy to read since a lot of additional words have been added in. Because this part is so important, I thought I should also post a literal translation. Useful to have a literal and a friendly translation and compare them. :)

The literal translation is sourced from the book below.
https://books.google.co.in/books/about/The_Early_Upanishads.html?id=d4IRDAAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
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Premium Member
Who is Aditi

In verse 7, the Self/Brahman is identified with Aditi. In the Veda-s, Aditi is the Goddess of infinite sky/cosmos and the mother of all the Devas and celestial beings. All the gods, specifically the Sun, were known as Adityas, the children of Aditi. Over time She came to be seen as the Feminized/Creative aspect of Brahman and eventually identified with Devi in Shakti theology.

ADITI
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Atman/Brahman and Hiryanyagarbha

Verse 6 identifies the Atman with the Golden Womb discussed in the Rig Veda.


6 He who was born before heat,
who before the waters was born,
who has seen through living beings—
Entering the cave of the heart,
[one sees] him abiding there.
So, indeed, is that!


The reference here is the famous Hiryanyagarbha suktam of Rig Veda.


1. The golden Womb (Hiryanyagarbha) evolved in the beginning. Born the lord of what came to be, he alone existed.
He supports the earth and the heaven here— – Who is the god to whom
we should do homage with our oblation?

2. Who is the giver of breath, the giver of strength; whose command all
honor, whose command the gods honor;
whose shadow is immortality, whose shadow is death— – Who is the god
to whom we should do homage with our oblation?

3. Who became king of the breathing, blinking, moving world—just he
alone by his greatness;
who is lord of the two-footed and four-footed creatures here— – Who is
the god to whom we should do homage with our oblation?

4. Whose are these snow-covered mountains [=the Himalayas] in their
greatness; whose is the sea together with the world-stream, they say;
whose are these directions, whose (their) two arms [=the zenith and
nadir?]— – Who is the god to whom we should do homage with our
oblation?

5. By whom the mighty heaven and earth were made fi rm; by whom the sun
was steadied, by whom the firmament;
who was the one measuring out the airy realm in the midspace— – Who
is the god to whom we should do homage with our oblation?

6. Toward whom the two battle lines [=heaven and earth] looked, steadied
with his help, though trembling in mind,
(those) upon which the risen sun radiates. – Who is the god to whom we
should do homage with our oblation?

7. When the lofty waters came, receiving everything as an embryo and
giving birth to the fire,
then the life of the gods evolved alone— – Who is the god to whom we
should do homage with our oblation?

8. Who by his greatness surveyed the waters receiving (ritual) skill (as an
embryo) and giving birth to the sacrifice;
who, the god over gods, alone existed. – Who is the god to whom we
should do homage with our oblation?

9. Let him not do us harm—he who is the progenitor of earth or who,
with foundations that are real, engendered heaven,
and who engendered the gleaming, lofty waters. – Who is the god to
whom we should do homage with our oblation?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Aditi, in Puranas mentioned as one of the daughters of Daksha Prajapati. In Vedas, her origin is not mentioned and neither who fathered her seven/eight/ten/twelve sons. Also, the name of God/Gds, to whom Aditi took her sons is not mentioned.
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
Atman/Brahman and Hiryanyagarbha

Verse 6 identifies the Atman with the Golden Womb discussed in the Rig Veda.
I have a translation of the Upanishads by Swami Prabhavananda. His verse 6 (with a footnote) runs:

He who sees the First-Born Born of the mind of
Brahma, born before the creation of waters - and sees
him inhabiting the lotus of the heart, living among
physical elements, sees Brahman indeed. For this Fist-Born
is the immortal Self*

*Brahman, the absolute, impersonal existence, when associated with the power called Maya - the power to evolve the empirical universe - is known as Hiranyagarbha, the First-Born.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Brahman was there at the same time as Lord Brahma but Lord Brahma is only a part of Brahman as are Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva and all the other deities of guna consciousness energy.;)
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Is guna consciousness energy an aspect of Maya?

Gunas are a part of Prakriti which is insentient, as opposed to the sentient Purusha or consciousness.

Prakriti is considered in the same vein as Maya as sense-pleasures from sensory objects have the potential to create desire in the form of craving/aversion, leading to the creation of the ego or false self, and ignorance of the true Self or Awareness.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Atman so far, in Katha Upansad


I thought it would be good time to summarize what Katha Upanisad is saying about Atman (Self) up to the passages discussed. I am noting the basic ideas that stood out along with associated passages.

a)Atman is the foundation that makes conscious experience and awareness of that experience possible. Atman is that which knows through these experiences.

It is through Atman that one knows form, taste, smell, sounds, touches and carnal pleasures. Is there anything that remains unknown to Atman? This, verily, is That.
It is through Atman that one perceives all objects in sleep or in the waking state. Having realised the vast, all-pervading Atman, the calm soul does not grieve.


b) It is distinct from bodily processes or thoughts, all which originate at a given time and die away at a later time. Atman, the foundation of consciousness, is eternal, unborn and unchanging.
The knowing Self is not born; It does not die. It has not sprung from anything; nothing has sprung from It. Birthless, eternal, everlasting and ancient, It is not killed when the body is killed.
The wise man, having realised Atman as dwelling within impermanent bodies but Itself bodiless, vast and all-pervading, does not grieve
.

c) Atman is also identical to Brahman, the golden womb of all worlds and the source of all devas. Direct realization of identity of the Atman with Brahman is the door to liberating knowledge.


He verily knows Brahman who knows the First-born, the offspring of austerity, created prior to the waters and dwelling, with the elements, in the cave of the heart. This, verily, is That.

He verily knows Brahman who knows Aditi, the soul of all deities, who was born in the form of Prana, who was created with the elements and who, entering into the heart, abides therein. This, verily, is That.
Whence the sun rises and whither it goes to set, in whom all the devas are contained and whom none can ever pass beyond-This, verily, is That.
What is here, the same is there and what is there, the same is here. He goes from death to death who sees any difference here.

What do you think? Is that a good summary?:)
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Is guna consciousness energy an aspect of Maya?
Brahman is supposed to be 'nirguna'. Maya creates 'gunas'.
What is here, the same is there and what is there, the same is here. Verily, he goes from death to death who does not see this.

What do you think? Is that a good summary?:)
यदेवेह तदमुत्र यदमुत्र तदन्विह । मृत्योः स मृत्युमाप्नोति य इह नानेव पश्यति ॥ १० ॥

yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha l mṛtyoḥ sa mṛtyumāpnoti ya iha nāneva paśyati ll 10 ll

What summary can be better than 'that'?
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry for the long delay. Been distracted by other stuff. Let's continue on with Katha Upanisads. Here is chapter 2 of part 2 continuing the description of Atman. What do you think?

Part 2 chapter 2

There is a city with eleven gates belonging to the unborn Atman of undistorted Consciousness. He who meditates on Him grieves no more; liberated from the bonds of ignorance, he becomes free. This, verily, is That.

2
He is the sun dwelling in the bright heavens. He is the air in the interspace. He is the fire dwelling on earth. He is the guest dwelling in the house. He dwells in men, in the gods, in truth, in the sky. He is born in the water, on earth, in the sacrifice, on the mountains. He is the True and the Great.

3
He it is who sends prana upward and who leads apana downward. All the devas worship that adorable One seated in the middle.

4
When the soul, identified with the body and dwelling in it, is torn away from the body, is freed from it, what then remains? This, verily, is That.

5
No mortal ever lives by prana, which goes up, nor by apana, which goes down. Men live by something different, on which these two depend.

6
Well then, Gautama, I shall tell you about this profound and eternal Brahman and also about what happens to the atman after meeting death.

7
Some jivas enter the womb to be embodied as organic beings and some go into non-organic matter-according to their work and according to their knowledge.

8
He, the Purusha, who remains awake while the sense-organs are asleep, shaping one lovely form after another, that indeed is the Pure, that is Brahman and that alone is called the Immortal. All worlds are contained in Him and none can pass beyond. This, verily, is That.

9
As the same non-dual fire, after it has entered the world, becomes different according to whatever it burns, so also the same non-dual Atman, dwelling in all beings, becomes different according to whatever It enters. And It exists also without.

10
As the same non-dual air, after it has entered the world, becomes different according to whatever it enters, so also the same non-dual Atman, dwelling in all beings, becomes different according to whatever It enters. And It exists also without.

11
As the sun, which helps all eyes to see, is not affected by the blemishes of the eyes or of the external things revealed by it, so also the one Atman, dwelling in all beings, is never contaminated by the misery of the world, being outside it.

12
There is one Supreme Ruler, the inmost Self of all beings, who makes His one form manifold. Eternal happiness belongs to the wise, who perceive Him within themselves-not to others.

13
There is One who is the eternal Reality among non-eternal objects, the one truly conscious Entity among conscious objects and who, though non-dual, fulfils the desires of many. Eternal peace belongs to the wise, who perceive Him within themselves-not to others.

14
The sages realise that indescribable Supreme Joy as "This is That." How can I realise It? Is It self-luminous? Does It shine brightly, or not?

15
The sun does not shine there, nor the moon and the stars, nor these lightnings-not to speak of this fire. He shining, everything shines after Him. By His light all this is lighted.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Sorry for the long delay. Been distracted by other stuff. Let's continue on with Katha Upanisads. Here is chapter 2 of part 2 continuing the description of Atman. What do you think?

Part 2 chapter 2

There is a city with eleven gates belonging to the unborn Atman of undistorted Consciousness. He who meditates on Him grieves no more; liberated from the bonds of ignorance, he becomes free. This, verily, is That.

2
He is the sun dwelling in the bright heavens. He is the air in the interspace. He is the fire dwelling on earth. He is the guest dwelling in the house. He dwells in men, in the gods, in truth, in the sky. He is born in the water, on earth, in the sacrifice, on the mountains. He is the True and the Great.

3
He it is who sends prana upward and who leads apana downward. All the devas worship that adorable One seated in the middle.

4
When the soul, identified with the body and dwelling in it, is torn away from the body, is freed from it, what then remains? This, verily, is That.

5
No mortal ever lives by prana, which goes up, nor by apana, which goes down. Men live by something different, on which these two depend.

6
Well then, Gautama, I shall tell you about this profound and eternal Brahman and also about what happens to the atman after meeting death.

7
Some jivas enter the womb to be embodied as organic beings and some go into non-organic matter-according to their work and according to their knowledge.

8
He, the Purusha, who remains awake while the sense-organs are asleep, shaping one lovely form after another, that indeed is the Pure, that is Brahman and that alone is called the Immortal. All worlds are contained in Him and none can pass beyond. This, verily, is That.

9
As the same non-dual fire, after it has entered the world, becomes different according to whatever it burns, so also the same non-dual Atman, dwelling in all beings, becomes different according to whatever It enters. And It exists also without.

10
As the same non-dual air, after it has entered the world, becomes different according to whatever it enters, so also the same non-dual Atman, dwelling in all beings, becomes different according to whatever It enters. And It exists also without.

11
As the sun, which helps all eyes to see, is not affected by the blemishes of the eyes or of the external things revealed by it, so also the one Atman, dwelling in all beings, is never contaminated by the misery of the world, being outside it.

12
There is one Supreme Ruler, the inmost Self of all beings, who makes His one form manifold. Eternal happiness belongs to the wise, who perceive Him within themselves-not to others.

13
There is One who is the eternal Reality among non-eternal objects, the one truly conscious Entity among conscious objects and who, though non-dual, fulfils the desires of many. Eternal peace belongs to the wise, who perceive Him within themselves-not to others.

14
The sages realise that indescribable Supreme Joy as "This is That." How can I realise It? Is It self-luminous? Does It shine brightly, or not?

15
The sun does not shine there, nor the moon and the stars, nor these lightnings-not to speak of this fire. He shining, everything shines after Him. By His light all this is lighted.

Yes I like that and can relate to the Atman of Undistorted Consciousness: I call it Paramatman.
 
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SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
This kinda went by the wayside a while back. Is anyone still interested in doing this study on the Principle Upanishads?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
That's great to hear. I recently bought Eknath Easwaran's translation with commentary and have been reading it. Being a bit of a solitaire practice and not having anyone to share thoughts with on the material, it would be nice to have a study group to discuss it with.

Anyone else beside me and sayak83 interested in continuing this pursuit?
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
That's great to hear. I recently bought Eknath Easwaran's translation with commentary and have been reading it. Being a bit of a solitaire practice and not having anyone to share thoughts with on the material, it would be nice to have a study group to discuss it with.

Anyone else beside me and sayak83 interested in continuing this pursuit?
I would join in.
 
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