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Boeing 737 MAX

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Jumi, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Lots of countries and airlines are grounding this airplane after the Ethiopian crash. Another crash by this plane model happened in Indonesia where the stabilizer was giving wrong information and thus the sharp angle fall and crash. If one believes the news, the trimming of the information is very slow, slow enough to affect the stability and causing serious danger cause of it.

    The EU is going to deliberate today or tomorrow if we are also going to ground the 737 MAX. While in the US the FAA has said there's no need to do anything about it, having investigated the Indonesian crash with the plane type.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Just fix the planes...
     
  3. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Boeing has announced a software update "within a week or two".

    Rather reminds me of a Simpson's episode, where Bart falls into an unmarked well. The episode unfolds, and eventually Sting (who was a guest voice) helps dig Bart out.

    At the end, Grounds keeper Willy is very concerned at the dangerous well.

    So he afixes a small sign: "Danger. Well"

    "There, that ought ta doit"

    ;) "nevermind anyone who dies in a 737 in the meantime... we were *working* on a fix!"
     
  4. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I found the FAA's view curious so I looked a bit into it. Are there conflicts of interest?

     
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  5. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Since Donald Trump has just appointed Barney Fife to run the FAA there will be no need for any further investigations.
     
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  6. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    The UK has banned them from UK air space.
     
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  7. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    You do realize that the planes that crashed were from 2nd tier airlines, with who knows how much training or lack of training the pilots have, and the maintenance these airlines received.
    Ask yourself this.
    The planes have been in service since May 2017 and are being flown by at least 3 maybe 4 US airlines without any problems and no talk among pilots about any problems.
     
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Godwin's Law (the modern version) is realized.
     
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  9. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Wrong.

    This is a story about the Lion Air crash. Recovering the "black boxes" in the latest one should be very helpful:

    Boeing’s New Jet Hit Problem in Tests Before Fatal Crash

    Aviation Week quotes a pilot who has flown three generations of the 737 who pointed out that a pilot confronted with the “stick shake” alert of an imminent stall could be unaware that the MCAS was activated. He said this was “the most insidious problem” in the new system that “makes the aircraft more difficult to control.”
    ...
    The FAA had to issue an emergency directive to airlines to update their flight manuals according to new instructions from Boeing. Muilenburg seems to be alluding to “runaway trim procedures” common to all models of the 737, a series of manual interventions required by the pilot in the event of an upset in the jet’s stability.

    Another pilot with a deep knowledge of the 737’s systems told The Daily Beast that Boeing would be looking at whether the Lion Air pilots should have been able to have recovered from the problem by using the runaway trim procedure “in a timely manner.”

    But, as the veteran 737 pilot pointed out to Aviation Week, if a pilot is unaware that the problem has been triggered by the MCAS, and was unaware even of that system’s existence, he may not understand the crisis he is confronting in a situation that requires a rapid series of manual actions to correct it.
    ...
    A pilot told the Seattle Times: “I’ve been flying the MAX-8 a couple of times per month for almost a year now, and I’m sitting here thinking, what the hell else don’t I know about this thing?”
     
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  10. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Aye, airliner crashes have extremely involved causes & investigations.
    The whole system is very complex, with planes being just one part.
    Without a full report from a reliable authority (FAA is good, but don't trust
    the French, Russians or Italians) we really know nothing about the cause.
    Most crashes can be attributed to combinations of design, pilot error,
    control tower error, weather, & maintenance.
    Note also that redesign is often about not correcting an error, but rather
    designing to be tolerant of failures from non-aircraft sources.

    Some of the many risk factors in airplane safety....
    - Airline culture regarding safety (not always good)
    - Pilot training, particularly if they have reflexes from experience on very different planes (eg, Russian vs western artificial horizon format)
    - Cockpit discipline
    - Rapidly growing airlines acquiring pilots in a hurry.
    - Financially troubled airlines cutting costs on maintenance
    - Many short haul flights causing early fatigue life limit
    - Maintenance crew training
    - Improper re-painting
    - Busy airports putting flights too close together
    - Over-worked air traffic controllers
    - Over-worked pilots
    - Airports with old technology
    - Obstacles like mountains nearby
    - Cockpit ergonomics
    - Corrosion, particularly when operating near oceans
     
    #10 Revoltingest, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  11. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Pretty sure it is a training issue. They'll have to modify the planes so someone who should not be flying can do it. There is a man on YouTube called Blancolirio who flies these things, so I am waiting to see what he says.
     
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  12. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    EU is banning them today in an hour or two.
     
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  13. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    If I look at their statistics, they've had two accidents with fatalities in 30 years with a fleet of 100+ planes. What went wrong with their training on 737 do you suppose? Are they somehow so much worse or harder to fly than say Airbus?

    They using 95% only Boeing and Airbus, somehow they haven't had problems with other planes.... perhaps only 737 MAX pilots are badly trained? It sounds like an interesting argument to say that the plane is made in a way that it's harder to fly safely.

    Still having one model of plane have two accidents in this time is so unusual (even if they're flown by airlines that you call second rate) that other countries take measures. The US of course does what you guys do.
     
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  14. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure they are so incompetent? They mostly buy US planes and have 110 of them. They're flying other Boeings and Airbuses without troubles so far. Only one other accident in 30 years and that was in difficult weather. Their only problem as an airline has been terrorists trying to hijack their planes.

    Could be interesting of course.
     
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  15. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Boeing Issues Safety Warning After a Fatal 737 MAX Nosedive

    This was from last year.
     
  16. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    We should note that safety notices are normal things, eg, Airbus A380.
    Their mere existence doesn't tell us about safety risk.

    I'm looking into their stock being nicely priced after dropping @7%.
     
    #16 Revoltingest, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  17. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    That will all come out in the investigation.
     
  18. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Fix the plane, train the pilots to handle the extra power.

    As a side note, i am spending a lot of time travelling back and forth to the UK by Ryanair. There fleet is 737-800s but they are expecting delivery of 5 737 max planes over the next 3 months.

    Guess who wont be flying on them if the problem isnt fixed.
     
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  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    I've run across one investigation which took about a decade to complete.
    I can't remember which crash it was, but that was unusual.
    Still I wouldn't expect results any time soon.....but I'll hope so nonetheless.
     
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  20. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the two planes crashing shortly after take off on good weather are more telling of possible risks. The plane hasn't been on the market for a long time, so such things tend to spook people and regulators a bit.

    I'm guessing a lot of people are going to make money on their stock this time.
     
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