1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Blood is not necessary for atonement

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Jan 22, 2020.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The Christian scriptures make the claim that "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins." Hebrews 9:22 This is a great part of their reasoning for the necessity of Jesus as the sacrifice for all sins.

    The problem is, this assumption is quite mistaken so far as the Tanakh (what Christians mistakenly call the "old" testament) is concerned. Let's look at what the Tanakh has to say.

    1. From the TORAH: Although commandments are given to make blood sacrifices for various reasons, it is never stated that ONLY blood offerings atone for sins. The closest the Torah comes is when it states that the life is in the blood and that this is why God gave it to us to make atonement for. Sure. But it never says that God didn't give us other means of atonement.

    2. From the TORAH: We have a recorded instance of Aaron making an atonement for the sin of Israel with incense rather than blood. The situation was as follows: Korah and his followers had grown jealous of Aaron as being the High Priest. They wanted a piece of the pie, and so they offered unlawful incense offering to God, which made God really really angry with their disobedience. God ended up killing some 250 of them. Well the Israelites grumbled about it, so God sent a plague upon the grumblers. Aaron needed to make a sacrfice to atone for their sin. Was it a blood sacrifice? No. It was an INCENSE offering. Numbers 17:11 (or 16:46 in Christian Bibles) And Moses said unto Aaron: 'Take thy fire-pan, and put fire therein from off the altar, and lay incense thereon, and carry it quickly unto the congregation, and make atonement for them; for there is wrath gone out from the LORD: the plague is begun.'

    3. From the PROPHETS: Hosea deals with the times there will be no temple. How will ANY sacrifices be made if there is no temple? Hosea 9:22 "The words of our lips [prayers] shall be as bullocks [sacrifices]."

    4. From the WRITINGS: Even though sacrifice is clearly commanded, it obviously does not derail the divine purpose on its highest levels if no sacrifice is made, according to the Psalms. It is t'shuva, repentance, that atones for sins, a "broken and contrite heart and spirit." Psalm 40:7 (6 in Christian Bibles) Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required. Psalm 51:18-19 (16-17 in Christian Bibles) For Thou delightest not in sacrifice, else would I give it; Thou hast no pleasure in burnt-offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.

    5. From the PROPHETS: Nathan confronted King David over his idolatry. II Samuel 12:13 "And David said unto Nathan: 'I have sinned against the LORD.' And Nathan said unto David: 'The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.' " When David confessed/repented, did Samuel say, "Quick! Go to the temple and make a blood sacrifice!"???? No. He said David's sin was forgiven. Already. Before any sacrifice was made at all. This is the voice of God's prophet. No where in the Tanakh is it made more clear -- it is REPENTANCE that on the highest level makes atonement for our sins.


    So why were we ever given the instructions to make a sanctuary and offer up sacrifices? Because God knew that this manner of doing things is for our own benefit. It simply works better in our own minds and hearts. Just as having a temple reminds us of the presence of Hashem, a sacrifice reminds us of our commitment to t'shuva, repentance. It takes the intangible, and gives it form and substance, which is simply easier for human beings to understand as real. But understanding as real, and actually BEING real are two different things. It simply doesn't take a sacrifice to make t'shuva real.

    Someday the Temple will be rebuilt. Sacrifices will resume. This will be a wonderful thing. The spiritual will flow from the core outward, as it was meant to. But in the meantime, we are doing just fine.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  2. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2019
    Messages:
    3,650
    Ratings:
    +3,004
    Religion:
    agnostic
    Great points. IIRC, the very poor could bring grain offerings as atonement also.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2019
    Messages:
    3,650
    Ratings:
    +3,004
    Religion:
    agnostic
    The typical Christian response is that Christ's blood is a permanent atonement, once for all and that the sacrifices in the Torah had to be repeated. This notion is based on the book of Hebrews which you quoted.
     
  4. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +849
    Religion:
    Gnostic Christian
    Paul in Heb. 9 says "by the law". " 9which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, " So, Paul downgrades blood sacrifice. It is just a symbol of "blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit"
    Christ can not be a blood sacrifice - it is spiritual being, not 'flesh and blood'.
     
  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Ahhhhh yes!!!!! I forgot about that one, Wandering Monk!!!! Thanks for the reminder! :)
     
  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I'll let your fellow Christians debate you on this point. I don't have a dog in the race.
     
  7. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +849
    Religion:
    Gnostic Christian
    They just ignore what they do not understand .
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I think there is a typo in here someplace that you need to edit. If Jesus' blood is permanent atonement, then the sacrifices in the Torah would NOT need to be repeated. That's their whole point. If you typed correctly, then could you please explain yourself in a bit more detail, because this doesn't click for me.
     
  9. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2019
    Messages:
    3,650
    Ratings:
    +3,004
    Religion:
    agnostic
    Christians believe that Jesus' death did away with the need for sacrifices because it is superior, doing things that the Temple system could not do.
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Oh? Teach me something I don't know about Christianity. I do love to learn new things. I thought the point was that Jesus' sacrifice was a one time eternal sacrifice that needed no repeat since he was "perfect." Is there anything beyond this that I don't know of?
     
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,773
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    In fact the Torah never offers a sacrifice at all for greater sins such as murder or adultery. Why would God demand blood to atone for small sins like being ritually unclean or whatever but freely forgive greater sins no problem?

    Ezekiel 33:12 (KJV)
    12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.


    The answer is quite simple actually. Jesus is the atonement not just for future sins but for all those sins that came before. The blood of bulls and goats? Only atoned for minor infractions. But Jesus atones for true sins. This is why David for example was forgiven without a sacrifice but only a "broken and contrite heart".

    Just something for you to consider. God is not inconsistent. He wouldn't want us to kill animals for small sins and then just easily forgive great sins. He must have His own sacrifice for the great sins.

    This is foreshadowed in Abraham and Isaac. What does Abraham say? "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:" This was prophecy and Abraham said this because he was a prophet. (Psalm 105:9-15)

    The Lamb God provided Abraham that day was only a foreshadow or typology of the true Lamb of God which is the Messiah Jesus Christ.

    So, in conclusion all the times you see the people forgiven without the shedding of blood; it is because God is looking forward to the time when Jesus would atone for all the sins of mankind from Adam to now and indeed the future.


    Isaiah 43:25 is more proof because God claims he will forgive us for His own sake. Not for the sake of bulls and goats! But because He will atone in His own way and in His own time. This is what God has done for us.

    Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
     
  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    7,012
    Ratings:
    +8,174
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    What a coincidence. I was just discussing this issue with a Christian poster on another forum. They sneakily quoted that verse from Hebrews without the reference and instead put a reference to Leviticus. It was only thanks to another Jewish poster that I was made aware of that. I thought it was just an odd (and clearly wrong) interpretation of Leviticus.

    Mostly well-said. I wouldn't say "we're doing fine". I think we don't completely understand what we're missing without a Temple, which is why we feel "fine", but we're not actually fine. Also, don't forget that atonement sacrifices weren't the only sacrifices in the Temple - there were also the daily sacrifices, the holiday sacrifices, etc.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian

    The language around Jesus is that he is a sacrificial lamb and he shed his blood for us.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2019
    Messages:
    2,781
    Ratings:
    +178
    Religion:
    truth
    I disagree with this but let's see why...
    I think this is where you are building a strawman argument no one is making. No one has stated that only blood sacrifices are required for forgiveness of sins. You correctly point out however that blood sacrifices are a commandment and a requirement for the forgiveness of sins in the TORAH (Old covenant) which is contradicting your OP'S claims and only supporting what is written in the new testament scriptures in HEBREWS 9:22. The commandments for blood offerings or grain offerings were commandments of God given to God's people to teach them that the wages of sin is death and that without blood there can be no "atonement" (כּפר; kâphar means to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel: - appease, make (an) atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, to pitch, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liation) of sins *LEVITICUS 4 to LEVITICUS 7.

    These commandments are but one part of the process of forgiveness according to the TORAH. What must take place before fulfilling these commandments of sin offerings according to the scriptures is "repentance" of sin *PROVERBS 28:13 He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy. God's forgiveness takes place at repentance but the blood is required for atonement and cleansing of sin because the wages of sin is death and therefore as it is written; And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Under the TORAH both confession, sorry and turning away from sin from the heart is required for God's forgiveness as were the sin offerings according to the ceremonial laws of the Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary service and the annual great day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)
    I think the whole story is not being provided here and your disregarding the context. The complete story in NUMBERS 16 or NUMBERS 17 (yours) is about the challenge by Korah and the 50 princes and their companions (the 250) challenging Aarons role to the Priesthood. Moses telling Korah and his companions to take censers, and put fire in them, and put incense in them before the LORD to morrow: and it shall be that the man whom the LORD does choose, he shall be holy *NUMBERS 16:1-7.

    The next day all the company of these people who were rebelling against MOSES and Aaron stood before the Lord with their incense (250 censers) and put them before them at the door of the tabernacle where they all gathered. *NUMBERS 16:16-18. These men were rebelling and sinned against God and God said to Moses and Aaron separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment *NUMBERS 16:21. At this Moses fell on his face and pleaded for the people v22. God told Moses to separate the people from these wicked men v23-27.

    Then Moses proclaimed Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of my own mind if these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD has not sent me but if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain to them, and they go down quick into the pit; then you shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground split asunder that was under them v26-34.

    A fire also came out from God and consumed the 250 that offered the incense not directed by God v35. God directed the son of Aaron to to make plates out of these censers as a memorial to the children of Israel, that no stranger, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses v37-40.

    Now the above is the context you left out. The very next day after all of this happened to whole congregation murmured against Moses and Aaron claiming that they had killed the people of the Lord despite the Lord handing out punishment to these people who sinned against God offering incense that was not directed by God v41.

    At this when the whole congregation came against Aaron and Moses God appeared in the cloud covering the temple and Moses and Aaron came before God *v41-43. God was wanting to consume this rebellious people v44-45. Moses and Aaron fell on their faces this is when Moses told Aaron to take the incense to go and make atonement for them.

    Now notice why God did this? This is not a commandment to use incense to make atonement it was to show the people that it was God's will that Aaron was to be the true Priest of God's own choosing and that it was him as God's chosen Priest using the incense that stopped the plague (atonement) as he was the true Priest of God's own choosing. Context matters. You simply left it out.
    Depending on the circumstances God has different requirements for forgiveness of sin though this is different as you know than the atonement of sin. Under captivity the nation of ISRAEL in the TORAH could not offer sacrifices and offerings for sin as they were in captivity and had no temple. This did not mean however that blood sacrifices were no longer God's commandments to the nation of ISRAEL in the TORAH (old covenant), just that they were unable to do them. Hosea 14:2 (in the bible) is in reference to having true repentance that comes from sorrow for sin and a turning away from it in order to seek God's forgiveness. This is shown in the context where in v1 God is pleading with ISRAEL to turn away from their sins and return to him. These scriptures do not do away with the TORAH's commandments in the old covenant for sin offerings.
    Agreed this is my point in the earlier sections. From the TORAH God required both repentance and a turning away from sin and the atonement of sin through the sin offerings according to Gods commandments in LEVITICUS 4 to LEVITICUS 7.
    Likewise to the above. This did not do away with the requirements of God's commandments for blood sin offerings in the old covenant, only that God's forgivness takes place in sorrow for sin and a turning away from it *PROVERBS 28:13. Atonement is for the penalty of sin (Death)
    You really have not answered your own question here very well. Why have blood offerings if you can have God's forgiveness as we have shown above through sorrow for sin and a turning away from sin *PROVERBS 28:13? Your explanation is contradictory as if we can have God's forgivness through repentance why were Gods people in the TORAH commanded to make blood offerings? I believe the correct answer is that these offerings were prophetic in nature pointing to the role of the MESSIAH (JESUS) and teachings us that the wages of sin is death according to the scriptures and that atonement from the "penalty" of sin (death) and reconciliation to God can only take place when we accept the gift of God's dear son who came to our world to die the very death (our penalty for sin) that we deserve to die on our behalf so that we can be reconcilled and brought back to God. JESUS is the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world *JOHN 1:29.

    Nice talking to you :)
     
    #14 3rdAngel, Jan 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Indeed if you read Leviticus closely, all the examples of the sins which necessitate a קָרְבַּן חַטָּאת, korban ḥatat, which we usually translate as sin offering, are all *unintentional* sins. If that's not worthy of a lot of deep thought and consideration, I don't know is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    By doing fine, I mean we are doing okay. Not excellent. I do think that the ideal is to have a temple with sacrifices. God means it for our benefit. He commanded it for a reason -- our own good.

    Which is why the Christian idea that sacrifices have been done away with forever is so wrongheaded. It goes against the very notion that sacrifices were ever a good idea in the first place.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    YOUR Christian scriptures, specifically Hebrews 9:22, makes such a claim. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins."

    Nuff said.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,773
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Then you should consider what I said. God is not inconsistent asking blood for small sins and freely forgiving great ones.

    No wonder even Job calls God "My redeemer". For God to be redeemer requires He pay a price for you.

    Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
     
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2019
    Messages:
    2,781
    Ratings:
    +178
    Religion:
    truth
    Nice hand waive without addressing the scripture content in the post that disagrees with you and why make an OP if your not willing to be challenged and discuss your claims? Nuff said ;)
     
    #19 3rdAngel, Jan 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2019
    Messages:
    3,650
    Ratings:
    +3,004
    Religion:
    agnostic
    Read the book of Hebrews. This perspective is derived mostly from that book.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...