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Blaming the innocent...

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There was no city of UR in "Abraham's" time.. In fact, he's probably a literary device.

The Bedouin of the Canaanite tribes had to move eastward into hill country to grow their own grains.
Actually, there was. Not a literary device but real and within the estimated time of Abraham's existence

Ur - Wikipedia
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Atheism is based on the faith that "there is no God". Faith is the foundation of a religion. That is a fact!

Not faith, logic based on he fact that no god has never, ever been a verified appearance of any god.

I do not believe in pink unicorns, is that a faith too?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Not faith, logic based on he fact that no god has never, ever been a verified appearance of any god.

I do not believe in pink unicorns, is that a faith too?
yes.....

but to say there is not God....you must abandon belief considered sure

nothing moves without something to move it
substance is NOT....self....motivated



all things move in a straight line unless influenced
the big bang would have been a hollow sphere of an energy pulse
but that is NOT what we see when we look up

the rotation would need be in play BEFORE the expansion began

that would be the pinch and snap of God's Fingers

and dead things do NOT beget the living
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Not faith, logic based on he fact that no god has never, ever been a verified appearance of any god.
So, you have searched the cosmos, you have delved into the deepest understanding of all things and have come to the conclusion and fact that there isn't a God.

Hmmmm.... faith statement.

PS... I eliminated an over used and ridiculous comparison. It is as good as me saying "You are a computer generated response".
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
Most suffering is caused by other humans though. Even those with good intentions can cause suffering even if only inadvertently. Most of the time our own suffering is our own fault.

That may be the case...it would be interesting to measure
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
yes.....

but to say there is not God....you must abandon belief considered sure

nothing moves without something to move it
substance is NOT....self....motivated



all things move in a straight line unless influenced
the big bang would have been a hollow sphere of an energy pulse
but that is NOT what we see when we look up

the rotation would need be in play BEFORE the expansion began

that would be the pinch and snap of God's Fingers

and dead things do NOT beget the living

To say there is no god, given the complete 100% lack of verifiable evidence is far easier and more logical than to say there is a god and how many god believers say that there is a god?

Gravity

Correct. Gravity pulled the expanding plasma to form clumps

Nope, gravity and motion began the rotation.

And still you have not shown a god exists, simply taken the "d'oh, i don't understand so god dun it' route

Obviously dead molecules under certain conditions do begat life. It is assumed because of evidence of DNA that it has only happened once. But there are several hypothesis that life has developed on earrh multiple times. And laboratory work, life or the requirements for life have been made in the lab 3 times that i know of. It seems life from none life may actually be far easier than the bronze age authors thought
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
We hold are breath until the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled", meaning that when the final non-Jewish person that God knows will come to faith in Christ, then He again will deal specifically with the nation of Israel.

Those alive during the time of Jesus on the earth, who heard the Jesus speak of end time events were not the ones He was referring to as those who would see these events, rather the generation alive at the end of the age who would see all these events, especially the nation of Israel restored to the land.

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

An interesting ambiguity...this generation might refer to a future generation. I wonder how this reads in the Greek.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
So, you have searched the cosmos, you have delved into the deepest understanding of all things and have come to the conclusion and fact that there isn't a God.

Hmmmm.... faith statement.

PS... I eliminated an over used and ridiculous comparison. It is as good as me saying "You are a computer generated response".


Have you?

Has any god believer who says there is a god? Why impose impossible tasks on your opposition while you are unwitting or unable to do so yourself?

I have read some astronomy and cosmology, particle physics and quantum mechanics, no god has ever turned up.

Understanding has no influence, unless if course you are saying god is of the human mind and that is another fallibility mine field.
Facts and the evidence have.

I have observed that over the last 10k years or so of god belief no one has ever provided evidence of god despite perhaps one hundred billion people having faith in a god or gods. In this way gods are the most disproved concept ever to cross s human mind.

Then we get the smaller evidences although just as valid?
What compassionate god would allow avoidable suffering?
What caring god should create and inflict leukemia on innocent children?
What creator god would create a race to worship him/her/it then create the mosquito and microscopic organisms to kill his prize creation.

I could go on but i see no point.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
An interesting ambiguity...this generation might refer to a future generation. I wonder how this reads in the Greek.
This, along with many other passages, leave me believing that Jesus' real ministry was "anti-Roman guerrilla" and the social reform was a side issue.
That would make Him more resembling Osama bin Laden than anybody else. It explains why He was executed for treason.

And since, given Saul of Tarsus' history, Jesus' fellow terrorists would hardly have told Paul about all that. So Paul created a new religion based on what The Apostles did tell him.
Tom
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
This, along with many other passages, leave me believing that Jesus' real ministry was "anti-Roman guerrilla" and the social reform was a side issue.
That would make Him more resembling Osama bin Laden than anybody else. It explains why He was executed for treason.

And since, given Saul of Tarsus' history, Jesus' fellow terrorists would hardly have told Paul about all that. So Paul created a new religion based on what The Apostles did tell him.
Tom

I have always argued this Roman history, end of the Republic, start of the Empire fascinates me. There is no doubt that Jesus would have been seen as an enemy of Rome, an anarchist.

There are stories of him being a member of the fourth philosophy zealots and possibly one of the sicarii.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
There is no doubt that Jesus would have been seen as an enemy of Rome, an anarchist.
And, as Messiah, His goal was to liberate Judea from the pagan oppressors. When He got executed, His following started hoping for Him to return with Heavenly reinforcements. As years went by, and that didn't happen, all kinds of other legends started to grow.
Tom
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
And, as Messiah, His goal was to liberate Judea from the pagan oppressors. When He got executed, His following started hoping for Him to return with Heavenly reinforcements. As years went by, and that didn't happen, all kinds of other legends started to grow.
Tom

I agree with this.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Have you?

Has any god believer who says there is a god? Why impose impossible tasks on your opposition while you are unwitting or unable to do so yourself?

I have read some astronomy and cosmology, particle physics and quantum mechanics, no god has ever turned up.
It is a matter of us looking at the same thing and yet coming to two different conclusions. You look at cosmology, particle physics, quantum mechanics and the world itself that a small change will destroy the world as we know it and say "Biology is the god of creation" and I look at the same evidence and say God has demonstrated His presence and its right in front of your nose.

Same object, different conclusion.

Understanding has no influence, unless if course you are saying god is of the human mind and that is another fallibility mine field.
Facts and the evidence have.

See above.

I have observed that over the last 10k years or so of god belief no one has ever provided evidence of god despite perhaps one hundred billion people having faith in a god or gods. In this way gods are the most disproved concept ever to cross s human mind.

See above.

Then we get the smaller evidences although just as valid?

Which one?

What compassionate god would allow avoidable suffering?

Misunderstanding of God does not constitute a truth. Show me one time Jesus didn't stop suffering. I can also show you Jesus wanting to but man not letting Him. Don't blame God for what man creates

So, unless you want robots that have no choice and self determination, you question is flawed.

What caring god should create and inflict leukemia on innocent children?

God doesn't. As Jesus well said "It is the thief that steals, kills and destroys but I came to give live and that more abundantly.

What creator god would create a race to worship him/her/it then create the mosquito and microscopic organisms to kill his prize creation.

Gen 1 and 2 - no death. Once man decides to do it his way, death is rampant. Don't blame God for what man and sin creates.

I could go on but i see no point.

No doubt.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It is a matter of us looking at the same thing and yet coming to two different conclusions. You look at cosmology, particle physics, quantum mechanics and the world itself that a small change will destroy the world as we know it and say "Biology is the god of creation" and I look at the same evidence and say God has demonstrated His presence and its right in front of your nose.

Same object, different conclusion.

No, thought and analysis of facts as opposed to "i don't know so god"


See above.

See above

See above.

See above

Which one?

I listed a few

Misunderstanding of God does not constitute a truth. Show me one time Jesus didn't stop suffering. I can also show you Jesus wanting to but man not letting Him. Don't blame God for what man creates

So, unless you want robots that have no choice and self determination, you question is flawed.

85% of the bible is not about jesus (who may have been an anarchist and terrorist in opposing the legitimate government). So arguing jesus is a very weak position on the bible

Ehm, god created the universe and all it contains, i have heard many christians claim. Apologetics does not change the teaching of the bible

God doesn't. As Jesus well said "It is the thief that steals, kills and destroys but I came to give live and that more abundantly.

See above

Gen 1 and 2 - no death. Once man decides to do it his way, death is rampant. Don't blame God for what man and sin creates.

See above
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
you know an Artist by His creation

Well, if that is true? Then "artist" who "created" the planet earth?

Was a rat-b*stard, a righteous beast, a monster by all accounts.

Bone cancer in little kids? Really?

There is a little worm-- who's entire life cycle requires spending time in the eyeballs of immature humans. What kind of "art" is that?

Most of the planet Earth is covered with a substance, that if drunk, kills you slowly. If you go into this stuff-- you'll die from lack of oxygen. Then, there are vast areas of land, that are also nearly instantly fatal, due to extremes of climate... In short? This "art piece" is mostly Fatal to humans. What sort of monster would do such a horrid thing?

BUT WAIT! THERE IS MORE: humans occupy a scant fraction of a tiny slice of a tiny chuck of rubble, in a cosmos that is instantly fatal to mortal humans everywhere else. What kind of idiot would waste such massive volumes of space, if we are the central theme, as is required for your sort of worldview?

you know an Artist by His creation

Indeed: A monster by any measure.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
So, unless you want robots that have no choice and self determination, you question is flawed.
God did create rather robotic creatures, programmed to survive and breed. We usually learn, to varying degrees, to live more fulfilling lives. But by and large we operate like our primitive primate ancestors.

Ehm, god created the universe and all it contains, i have heard many christians claim. Apologetics does not change the teaching of the bible
Including human nature, with all our flaws, weakness and ignorance.
I honestly think that a big part of the reason religionists are so frequently anti-science is because evolution challenges the idea that all our choices are freely determined and therefore we are the culpable parties, not their omnimax benevolent deity.
You know, the One who made us as we are and put us in the situation we find ourselves in.
Tom
 

InChrist

Free4ever
For the record, what you are doing is called "eisegesis." It means "reading into" the Bible what you want it to say, rather than the more common (and more acceptable) exegesis, meaning trying to extract the meaning from what the words and context actually say.

Eisegesis, in my opinion (and in the opinion of many others, much smarter than I am) is very poor theology, and pretty much invariably dishonest.

I replay your own quotes back at you: "4 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

There is nothing, not one shard, that suggests that Jesus is talking to people in the future when he says "I say to you" (the people listening to him in the moment), "this generation will by no means pass away..." To make it say what you mean, you have to invent it out of whole cloth.

Reading the text of Matthew 24 (and Luke 21:5-33, a corresponding passage) you see that after Jesus tells the disciples that every stone of the temple will be thrown down... "Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”(Matthew 24:2). The disciples to ask Him three questions:

1. When will these things be?
2. What shall be the sign of your coming?
3. And the end of the age?

Jesus goes on to answer their questions and tell them some of the events that will take place. As with many prophetic passages in the scriptures there is reference to double fulfillment; present and future. The disciples did face persecution, the Jewish were people taken captive and dispersed, an abomination of the temple took place, the temple was destroyed, and control of Jerusalem was completely lost to Gentiles in 70 AD. Yet, in the same passage Jesus speaks of the future restoration of Israel ( Matthew 24:32-35 ; Luke 21:29-33), dramatic end time events on earth and in the heavens, great tribulation as the world has never known, and His return to establish the kingdom of God on earth as promised.

I believe the context shows that while Jesus referred to certain events limited to Jerusalem/Israel which took place in the lives of the disciples He was speaking to, He was also referring to a future generation. The generation who would see the restoration of the nation of Israel and who would experience the judgments of the tribulation globally, would be the same generation who experiences the second coming of Christ at the end of the age. Jesus is saying is that the generation that sees the beginning of the signs of the end of the age, also see the end. Once the signs begin, they will occur quickly, within a generation
 

InChrist

Free4ever
A nice bit of spin you have there-- it serves to illustrate you recognize the bible is mostly immoral, and only ever applied to those who were alive, 2000+ years gone, and has nothing relevant to say to anyone today.

Good!
No, I don't recognize the Bible as mostly or immoral at all. The Bible does certainly expose human immorality though and I think that is relevant information.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Can you tell me how people are supposedly better off if they need meds just to get through their day? o_O
That is a fake existence...not living.

That's nonsense. Many people take meds, and what those meds frequently do is make the day a lot more pleasant than it might be. Yes, the world is full of stuff that cause us illness (and according to you, all created by the ONLY Creator). That we mere humans have been smart enough to beat back some of those illnesses, to allow millions to live longer, and to live BETTER, is rather to our credit, I think.

Or are you suggesting that they would be better off just dying and getting out of it all?
Tell that to the poor souls who have no quality of life, "living" (existing) in nursing homes. All they are is a frail body in a bed earning other people money. There is little "care" in care facilities because poorly paid staff are usually run off their feet with no time to give their patients anything but a clean up and off to the next person who needs toileting. No time for a chat or to make them feel cared about.

"Dying from complications of old age"? Do you realize that death for them is preferable to their present life in many cases. I speak from experience. :(
Again I have to ask, what are you suggesting? Based on your own words, it would really seem that, rather than help people with meds, or allow them to be taken care of in nursing homes, you think these things would be better withheld so they could just die (probably most uncomfortably) and get it over with. Is that really what you think?
 
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