• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Blaming the innocent...

siti

Well-Known Member
What makes you sure your prediction will be correct when everybody else has failed 100% of the time?
That's what I always tell one of my "rapture ready" buddies at work - I have successfully predicted hundreds of days on which the Lord would not return - he has yet to get one right despite being of the firm conviction that the second advent could be any day soon - even if the Lord does eventually return and I am condemned to the flames of eternal torment, at least I'll go down into Hades with a better record - and he'll ascend on a cloud to heaven knowing that I was still right hundreds of times more often than he was...and after all, being right is by far the most important thing.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What makes you sure your prediction will be correct when everybody else has failed 100% of the time?

Jesus gave us a series of world events that would indicate that the time was near.
It is like a fingerprint that fits no other time period. We believe that the last days of this present system began with WW1 and continues to our time. We do not know when they end. (Matthew 24:36)

IDENTIFYING MARKS OF THE LAST DAYS

Unprecedented warfare.—Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:4

Famine.—Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:5, 6, 8

Pestilences.—Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:8

Increasing lawlessness.—Matthew 24:12

Earthquakes.—Matthew 24:7

Critical times hard to deal with.—2 Timothy 3:1

Inordinate love of money.—2 Timothy 3:2

Disobedience to parents.—2 Timothy 3:2

A lack of natural affection.—2 Timothy 3:3

Loving pleasures rather than God.—2 Timothy 3:4

A lack of self-control.—2 Timothy 3:3

Without love of goodness.—2 Timothy 3:3

Taking no note of the impending danger.—Matthew 24:39

Ridiculers rejecting proof of the last days.—2 Peter 3:3, 4

Global preaching of God’s Kingdom.—Matthew 24:14

Do You Recognize the Sign of Jesus’ Presence? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The prophet Daniel also indicates when the last rulers will have power over the earth. Beginning with Babylon, he foretold the march of world powers that have a connection with God's people down through history. Babylon was overthrown by Medo-Persia, then Greece took power, then Rome, then Britain and lastly an alliance of Britain with the USA. The current world rulers are the last, according to Daniel. (Daniel 2:44)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
People have been making the same claims for 2000 years now.
Actually, the amounts and frequencies of war have been decreasing, even on a global scale.
Increasing lawlessness.—Matthew 24:12
Crime has been going down.
There are thousands of those each and every year. The bulk majority are where nobody lives though so we only notice a handful of them.

Then why have so many of us never been so secure that we know we have a next meal? Why is there no plague or widespread epidemics, only over hyped "disease of the year" that scare people and turn out to be not nearly as bad as we're told?
Critical times hard to deal with.—2 Timothy 3:1
It's not the Great Depression, Black Death, WWII, what makes these critical times hard to deal with?
Inordinate love of money.—2 Timothy 3:2
We've been restricting this love of money - no more slavery, child labor laws, worker protections, environmental protections, even tobacco companies have been heavily restricted.
Without love of goodness.—2 Timothy 3:3
Where is this going on?
Taking no note of the impending danger.—Matthew 24:39
What impending danger?
Ridiculers rejecting proof of the last days.—2 Peter 3:3, 4
That too has been going on since the first predicted-and-failed end of times prediction. What about Jesus saying those things would happen while some of the Disciples were still alive?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves,
Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?

Think of it for a moment: what, right now, today, are most ordinary people doing everywhere in the world? They're trying to survive, trying to bring up their children, feed them and educate them. And trying not to get noticed by the "powers that be." This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu. Everywhere...it's what humans do!

Where, in this world, can you find a place where everybody in the whole society is acting with the kind of depravity that Christian love to accuse the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Canaanites, and so many others of? WHERE? NO WHERE---THAT'S WHERE.

When humans resort to human sacrifice -- that's religion, that's the priests using their wiles to convince ordinary folk that that's how to appease God, or get rain, or be fertile, or get the crops to grow. Ordinary folk just go out in the field and plant corn, like they always did, and hope there's enough sun and rain to make it grow. When temple prostitution is used to try to encourage fertility, that's religion, that's the priests, pretending they know how to get the gods to favour their tribe over others -- when in fact they know diddly squat. Ordinary people are too busy with survival to be concerned with any of that nonsense.

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!

People is Korea and Russia sacrifice toddlers to flames while they have orgies, and institute pederasty at a government level? Your comparisons fall short.

Not only were the people in Canaan perverted, God gave them 400 years to repent--while you are angry after maybe 4 minutes!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sealchan

Well-Known Member
This is true though. If you don't believe in God or religion then this should be especially true for you. If humans don't bring pain and suffering onto ourselves than who does? Not God according to you because he doesn't exist. So it has to be humans.

Nature, created by God and the co-creator of ourselves. If we have been given a will to live like any animal has, then the real possibility of death is the source of suffering. Why does suffering have to be created by a blamable person?
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Jesus gave us a series of world events that would indicate that the time was near.
It is like a fingerprint that fits no other time period. We believe that the last days of this present system began with WW1 and continues to our time. We do not know when they end. (Matthew 24:36)

IDENTIFYING MARKS OF THE LAST DAYS

Unprecedented warfare.—Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:4

Famine.—Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:5, 6, 8

Pestilences.—Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:8

Increasing lawlessness.—Matthew 24:12

Earthquakes.—Matthew 24:7

Critical times hard to deal with.—2 Timothy 3:1

Inordinate love of money.—2 Timothy 3:2

Disobedience to parents.—2 Timothy 3:2

A lack of natural affection.—2 Timothy 3:3

Loving pleasures rather than God.—2 Timothy 3:4

A lack of self-control.—2 Timothy 3:3

Without love of goodness.—2 Timothy 3:3

Taking no note of the impending danger.—Matthew 24:39

Ridiculers rejecting proof of the last days.—2 Peter 3:3, 4

Global preaching of God’s Kingdom.—Matthew 24:14

Do You Recognize the Sign of Jesus’ Presence? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The prophet Daniel also indicates when the last rulers will have power over the earth. Beginning with Babylon, he foretold the march of world powers that have a connection with God's people down through history. Babylon was overthrown by Medo-Persia, then Greece took power, then Rome, then Britain and lastly an alliance of Britain with the USA. The current world rulers are the last, according to Daniel. (Daniel 2:44)

All of these things have been true ever since that prophecy has been given...what makes today any different? That is, perhaps the brilliance of a good prophecy, to seem specific but be everlastingly relevant.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Nature, created by God and the co-creator of ourselves. If we have been given a will to live like any animal has, then the real possibility of death is the source of suffering. Why does suffering have to be created by a blamable person?

Because nature isn't a 40 year old man that rapes 5 year old children. That's not nature's or anyone else fault except the 40 year old man.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
All of these things have been true ever since that prophecy has been given...what makes today any different? That is, perhaps the brilliance of a good prophecy, to seem specific but be everlastingly relevant.
The difference today is that Israel is back in the promised land as was foretold and God's time frame for world history and prophecy revolve around the nation of Israel.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Because nature isn't a 40 year old man that rapes 5 year old children. That's not nature's or anyone else fault except the 40 year old man.

True, but this case doesn't represent the whole range of possibility. However, if the 40 year old man rapes children because of a genetic defect...

I would agree that we must hold each other accountable for the suffering we may cause another...however, I do not agree that all suffering is essentially caused by human beings.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
The difference today is that Israel is back in the promised land as was foretold and God's time frame for world history and prophecy revolve around the nation of Israel.

And that was seventy years ago...how long shall we hold our breath?

After World War II it is more likely that humanity will cause an apocalypse in its own manner than it is likely that one that recognizably could be linked to any foresight on Daniel's part would occur. That is, unless we see the Biblical predictions are true like Tarot card readings are true...because they are so open to interpretation.

It might be better that we work together across all faith and national boundary lines to address the evidential sources for catastrophic calamity that we are currently faced with than to sit back and wait for an inevitable belief that has yet to evidence itself.

Besides, as another poster mentioned, we have already long past the lifetimes of those who would have heard Jesus say that such things would come.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
True, but this case doesn't represent the whole range of possibility. However, if the 40 year old man rapes children because of a genetic defect...

I would agree that we must hold each other accountable for the suffering we may cause another...however, I do not agree that all suffering is essentially caused by human beings.

Most suffering is caused by other humans though. Even those with good intentions can cause suffering even if only inadvertently. Most of the time our own suffering is our own fault.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
.. Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!

The simple answer: Is yes, yes it does.

Substituting "god, he did it" for "we do not actually know" warps a person's natural desire to learn the "why" and "how" of things.

"god" is a placeholder for things we do not know or understand, and worse-- it halts further inquiry into the subject.

So yes-- religion does, in fact, reduce people's ability to think with reason.

If the non-answer for any hard question is always "magic" then eventually, people quit asking and worse, quit thinking about the subject.

It is even worse, if any dissenters are killed and/or tortured just for asking-- as had been the case for so very, very long...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Yes, Noah and his family were human and I am sure that even when the Bible says Noah was righteous it does not mean sinless. What it does mean is that he demonstrated faith in God. Noah believed, trusted, and obeyed God.

And look how well THAT has turned out? Not good-- we call it the Dark Ages because the world (as we knew it) was run by those same Trust-In-God types.

It was brutal.

Challenge: Take your bible. Open it at random. Do what the randomly-selected verse does. How many days until you are arrested?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
And that was seventy years ago...how long shall we hold our breath?

After World War II it is more likely that humanity will cause an apocalypse in its own manner than it is likely that one that recognizably could be linked to any foresight on Daniel's part would occur. That is, unless we see the Biblical predictions are true like Tarot card readings are true...because they are so open to interpretation.

It might be better that we work together across all faith and national boundary lines to address the evidential sources for catastrophic calamity that we are currently faced with than to sit back and wait for an inevitable belief that has yet to evidence itself.

Besides, as another poster mentioned, we have already long past the lifetimes of those who would have heard Jesus say that such things would come.

We hold are breath until the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled", meaning that when the final non-Jewish person that God knows will come to faith in Christ, then He again will deal specifically with the nation of Israel.

Those alive during the time of Jesus on the earth, who heard the Jesus speak of end time events were not the ones He was referring to as those who would see these events, rather the generation alive at the end of the age who would see all these events, especially the nation of Israel restored to the land.

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
are you blaming God?
the followers of God?
or Man?

it is written.....dominate all things
God gave Man.....dominion

and under the notion of freewill
Man is the culprit of harm done

occasional tweaks...….like the flood event
stay off the pending doom
the extinction of Man

are you in a hurry?

Since nobody-- in all the history of Earth, has shown that "god" or "gods" are real?

We do not blame this myth.

We DO blame people who claim to speak FOR gods, however.

Anyone who in one sentence claims "god cannot be knowable" but then goes on to say "but god says THIS" is the lowest form of hypocrite there is.

Prove this beast-god of yours is real?

Or quit claiming to speak FOR it.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
And look how well THAT has turned out? Not good-- we call it the Dark Ages because the world (as we knew it) was run by those same Trust-In-God types.

It was brutal.

Challenge: Take your bible. Open it at random. Do what the randomly-selected verse does. How many days until you are arrested?
I don't take the Bible out of context like that. Much of the Bible is historical narrative and accounts of and for specific situations. Not everything in the Bible is meant to applied to me or just anyone without context or discernment. It seems obvious to me that the problems in the world are because it is run by those who trust in and exalt themselves over others. Certainly they are not living lives submitted to or trusting God and loving others as themselves.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I don't take the Bible out of context like that..

Of course you cannot! You correctly realize that the bible commands IMMORAL ACTS-- and fortunately, you are MORE MORAL that your ugly bible.

This is a GOOD THING-- at some level, you realize the bible is IMMORAL-- and should not be followed.

You carefully cherry-pick the MORAL bits out-- because non-bible MORALITY has taught you better.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Of course you cannot! You correctly realize that the bible commands IMMORAL ACTS-- and fortunately, you are MORE MORAL that your ugly bible.

This is a GOOD THING-- at some level, you realize the bible is IMMORAL-- and should not be followed.

You carefully cherry-pick the MORAL bits out-- because non-bible MORALITY has taught you better.
Wrong. You do not understand my thoughts or realizations concerning the Bible at all.
 
Top