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Blaming the innocent...

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes, Noah and his family were human and I am sure that even when the Bible says Noah was righteous it does not mean sinless. What it does mean is that he demonstrated faith in God. Noah believed, trusted, and obeyed God.

Noah was just the late Jewish version of the flood story.

The Sumerian Great Flood, The Flood Story: translation ...
www.mesopotamiangods.com/the-sumerian-great-flood-the-flood-story-translation
Ziusudra
, the Sumerian Noah, is here described as ‘the priest of Enki ‘, which is new information. The Sumerian Flood story is one of the 6 forerunners to the Old Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic, the source for the Old Babylonian myth Atra-Hasis, and for the Biblical account of the Flood (Genesis 6:5-9:29), written down several hundred years later.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It was an entirely different culture with different requirements in place demonstrating respect or disrespect.
Clearly Noah was in the wrong, as Ham did nothing more than accidentally stumble in upon his father's shame. Noah was drunk and naked, not Ham, yet the one who wasn't doing anything bad was punished. But, it still stands today, people who are sober often don't like being around drunks because of crap like that.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Absolutely! Atheism is a religion as Mao and Stalin sacrificed their own people.
Unworthy, Ken. "Sacrifice" is a rather specific sort of word, and one you have used yourself "when talking about the Canaanites sacrificing children." Murdering your enemiesn (and your own people) is really quite a different thing, and pretty much never done with any sort of ritual meant to enthrall the "true believers."

I will grant you that the difference between "religion" and "political ideology" can be hard to articulate, but they are different.

(If you would like an essay on how communism, and other socialisms, were primarily about trying to do the impossible -- i.e making everybody "equal" -- rather than allowing everyone the liberty to compete on an unequal playing field, maybe I'll write that some day, but not today. Too many other things going on. Meantime, try reading A.C. Grayling's book "Towards the Light: The story of the struggles for liberty and rights that made the modern west.")
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Clearly Noah was in the wrong, as Ham did nothing more than accidentally stumble in upon his father's shame. Noah was drunk and naked, not Ham, yet the one who wasn't doing anything bad was punished. But, it still stands today, people who are sober often don't like being around drunks because of crap like that.

I have seen fundies claim that Ham had sex with his mother. Like they read a completely different Bible.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Unworthy, Ken. "Sacrifice" is a rather specific sort of word, and one you have used yourself "when talking about the Canaanites sacrificing children." Murdering your enemiesn (and your own people) is really quite a different thing, and pretty much never done with any sort of ritual meant to enthrall the "true believers."

I will grant you that the difference between "religion" and "political ideology" can be hard to articulate, but they are different.

(If you would like an essay on how communism, and other socialisms, were primarily about trying to do the impossible -- i.e making everybody "equal" -- rather than allowing everyone the liberty to compete on an unequal playing field, maybe I'll write that some day, but not today. Too many other things going on. Meantime, try reading A.C. Grayling's book "Towards the Light: The story of the struggles for liberty and rights that made the modern west.")

The Jews were Canaanites and did sacrifice their children.. Note that Abraham didn't protest when he was told to sacrifice Isaac.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Yes, Noah and his family were human and I am sure that even when the Bible says Noah was righteous it does not mean sinless. What it does mean is that he demonstrated faith in God. Noah believed, trusted, and obeyed God.
But does the fact that it is all entirely myth have any bearing on the question? Have you read the much older story of the flood from "The Epic of Gilgamesh," in which Noah was actually named Utnapushtim? We cannot, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, establish a history from myth. And it is (as you'll see if you read Gilgamesh) unquestionably myth.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Think of it for a moment: what, right now, today, are most ordinary people doing everywhere in the world? They're trying to survive, trying to bring up their children, feed them and educate them. And trying not to get noticed by the "powers that be." This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu. Everywhere...it's what humans do!

Absolutely, if you don't take into account that in China the government (people) oppress the innocent Chinese, Russia (people) kill innocent people who speak up against them and North Koreas (people) have mucho prison camps of innocent people... BUT CHRISTIAN, who are going about saying "For God loved the whole world" are accusing Canaanites, who did child sacrifices and permeated their lives with beastiality, are as @Evangelicalhumanist says, just ordinary people!

:facepalm:

Somebody... please help me.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But does the fact that it is all entirely myth have any bearing on the question? Have you read the much older story of the flood from "The Epic of Gilgamesh," in which Noah was actually named Utnapushtim? We cannot, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, establish a history from myth. And it is (as you'll see if you read Gilgamesh) unquestionably myth.
When does reality become reality?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Unworthy, Ken. "Sacrifice" is a rather specific sort of word, and one you have used yourself "when talking about the Canaanites sacrificing children." Murdering your enemiesn (and your own people) is really quite a different thing, and pretty much never done with any sort of ritual meant to enthrall the "true believers."

Work colonies were established for minors, and new laws were adapted that allowed for the execution of children under the age of 12.

Stalin's Reign of Terror - War and Genocide in Children's Literature

yes... the difference between sacrificing children and executing children is....... well it is different because although both are killed, it is different because....

Well... because one is killed and the other is too. Got it!
 

leov

Well-Known Member
How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves," or that
or, as from @Ken, that "the Canaanites were all evil and had to be destroyed?"

Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?

Think of it for a moment: what, right now, today, are most ordinary people doing everywhere in the world? They're trying to survive, trying to bring up their children, feed them and educate them. And trying not to get noticed by the "powers that be." This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu. Everywhere...it's what humans do!

Where, in this world, can you find a place where everybody in the whole society is acting with the kind of depravity that Christian love to accuse the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Canaanites, and so many others of? WHERE? NO WHERE---THAT'S WHERE.

When humans resort to human sacrifice -- that's religion, that's the priests using their wiles to convince ordinary folk that that's how to appease God, or get rain, or be fertile, or get the crops to grow. Ordinary folk just go out in the field and plant corn, like they always did, and hope there's enough sun and rain to make it grow. When temple prostitution is used to try to encourage fertility, that's religion, that's the priests, pretending they know how to get the gods to favour their tribe over others -- when in fact they know diddly squat. Ordinary people are too busy with survival to be concerned with any of that nonsense.

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!
Canaan is much more complicated than just evil practices like human sacrifices and cannibalism, evil is very infectious. Giants were other problem. Did it really happened beyond theological treatise? Doubt this.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves,"

Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?

Think of it for a moment: what, right now, today, are most ordinary people doing everywhere in the world? They're trying to survive, trying to bring up their children, feed them and educate them. And trying not to get noticed by the "powers that be." This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu. Everywhere...it's what humans do!

Where, in this world, can you find a place where everybody in the whole society is acting with the kind of depravity that Christian love to accuse the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Canaanites, and so many others of? WHERE? NO WHERE---THAT'S WHERE.

When humans resort to human sacrifice -- that's religion, that's the priests using their wiles to convince ordinary folk that that's how to appease God, or get rain, or be fertile, or get the crops to grow. Ordinary folk just go out in the field and plant corn, like they always did, and hope there's enough sun and rain to make it grow. When temple prostitution is used to try to encourage fertility, that's religion, that's the priests, pretending they know how to get the gods to favour their tribe over others -- when in fact they know diddly squat. Ordinary people are too busy with survival to be concerned with any of that nonsense.

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!
People are like grass growing up and getting cut down. Countries are judged in this world and individuals in eternity. What else is there to say? Every country will face it's day. Look at history and see how all countries are brought low and crushed under invasions or natural disasters. It's no accident.

Next, this whole world will be destroyed and melt. This world is passing away and it can't last because it's not built on the rock. It's foundations are on the sand and it will not stand. People's lives under the sun are vanity of vanities as Solomon said.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Absolutely, if you don't take into account that in China the government (people) oppress the innocent Chinese, Russia (people) kill innocent people who speak up against them and North Koreas (people) have mucho prison camps of innocent people... BUT CHRISTIAN, who are going about saying "For God loved the whole world" are accusing Canaanites, who did child sacrifices and permeated their lives with beastiality, are as @Evangelicalhumanist says, just ordinary people!

:facepalm:

Somebody... please help me.

The Jews were just a Canaanite tribe, but they always demonized their neighbors.. Israel and Judah even demonized each other.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?
are you blaming God?
the followers of God?
or Man?

it is written.....dominate all things
God gave Man.....dominion

and under the notion of freewill
Man is the culprit of harm done

occasional tweaks...….like the flood event
stay off the pending doom
the extinction of Man

are you in a hurry?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
are you blaming God?
the followers of God?
or Man?

it is written.....dominate all things
God gave Man.....dominion

and under the notion of freewill
Man is the culprit of harm done

occasional tweaks...….like the flood event
stay off the pending doom
the extinction of Man

are you in a hurry?

All the flood myths.. even the six that predate Noah.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Absolutely, if you don't take into account that in China the government (people) oppress the innocent Chinese, Russia (people) kill innocent people who speak up against them and North Koreas (people) have mucho prison camps of innocent people... BUT CHRISTIAN, who are going about saying "For God loved the whole world" are accusing Canaanites, who did child sacrifices and permeated their lives with beastiality, are as @Evangelicalhumanist says, just ordinary people!

:facepalm:

Somebody... please help me.
You have no evidence of that. The Bible doesn't count because its accounts of other peoples are lies meant to demonize them. It's atrocity propaganda. Happens all the time.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Hard to see why exposing yourself to your son is such a scary deal. I grew up when the YMCA was naked swimming, and dads, sons, uncles and strangers were all equally exposed. They don't seem to have come down with anything terminal, as a result.
Well quite - but I have it on good authority that this kind of thing was frowned upon in Noah's day :(
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Let me try to explain....
How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves," or that
or, as from @KenS , that "the Canaanites were all evil and had to be destroyed?"

Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?

From the perspective of creating pictorial examples for later events, I do see some merit to those examples being created and recorded. After all Jesus used the situation of Noah's time to prefigure the same situation that will precipitate his return in our day. (Matthew 24:37-39) The earth today is again "filled with violence" and immorality. Sex and violence at an extreme level were the two primary factors in God bringing the earth to ruin at that time.

Where, in this world, can you find a place where everybody in the whole society is acting with the kind of depravity that Christian love to accuse the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Canaanites, and so many others of? WHERE? NO WHERE---THAT'S WHERE.

Which is why God will again act to destroy this entire world system and all the rot that goes with it.

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!

No actually, its the inability of unbelievers to discern that they themselves are being manipulated by an unseen enemy who is laughing at their own gullibility. He knows he can't win, but he will thumb his nose at God by taking as many down with him as he can. He is a deceiver, so whether we will be among the deceived is largely up to us. How easy are we to fool? The further away from God we are, the easier it will be.

And let me just point out -- you yourself quoted that "every inclination of the human heart" and "all the people of the earth." Where does that leave Noah and the other 7? Weren't they human? weren't they people of the earth?

Noah was the only one not adopting the thinking and activities of those around him.....he was different in that he actually cared about what God thought, as opposed to what he might have been persuaded to think by popular opinion. Look at the moral decay in the world today.....no one even recognizes it as such.....its the new "normal".

Hard to see why exposing yourself to your son is such a scary deal. I grew up when the YMCA was naked swimming, and dads, sons, uncles and strangers were all equally exposed. They don't seem to have come down with anything terminal, as a result. :rolleyes:

Unless of course the "dads, sons, uncles and strangers" are pedophiles.....:shrug:

It wasn't just becoming inebriated and exposing himself that was the problem....though respecting their father's dignity was obviously important. And since the curse was on Ham's son Canaan, it is possible that his grandson did something obscene to his grandfather and maybe even joked about it, but his father had failed to correct him. The descendants of Ham's son Canaan became the Canaanite nation, so perhaps whatever was done by Canaan was indicative of what his progeny would demonstrate in the future? (Genesis 9:24-27)
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hard to see why exposing yourself to your son is such a scary deal. I grew up when the YMCA was naked swimming, and dads, sons, uncles and strangers were all equally exposed. They don't seem to have come down with anything terminal, as a result. :rolleyes:

Well the 'Village People' loved to hang out (pardon the pun) there.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves,

Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?

Think of it for a moment: what, right now, today, are most ordinary people doing everywhere in the world? They're trying to survive, trying to bring up their children, feed them and educate them. And trying not to get noticed by the "powers that be." This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu. Everywhere...it's what humans do!

Where, in this world, can you find a place where everybody in the whole society is acting with the kind of depravity that Christian love to accuse the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Canaanites, and so many others of? WHERE? NO WHERE---THAT'S WHERE.

When humans resort to human sacrifice -- that's religion, that's the priests using their wiles to convince ordinary folk that that's how to appease God, or get rain, or be fertile, or get the crops to grow. Ordinary folk just go out in the field and plant corn, like they always did, and hope there's enough sun and rain to make it grow. When temple prostitution is used to try to encourage fertility, that's religion, that's the priests, pretending they know how to get the gods to favour their tribe over others -- when in fact they know diddly squat. Ordinary people are too busy with survival to be concerned with any of that nonsense.

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!

A lot of stories in the Bible, I believe are symbolical as it is a spiritual Book about the heart and soul’s journey towards God.

Stories like Noah and the flood, Adam and Eve, the Red Sea Parting and the 7 days of creation have a deeper spiritual and moral context and should not be taken literally.

In many cases only subsequent Prophets can truly verify fact from fancy, literal from allegorical and recent Prophets have confirmed that both Moses and Jesus did receive revelations from God.
 
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