Blaming the innocent...

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves.

Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?

Think of it for a moment: what, right now, today, are most ordinary people doing everywhere in the world? They're trying to survive, trying to bring up their children, feed them and educate them. And trying not to get noticed by the "powers that be." This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu. Everywhere...it's what humans do!

Where, in this world, can you find a place where everybody in the whole society is acting with the kind of depravity that Christian love to accuse the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Canaanites, and so many others of? WHERE? NO WHERE---THAT'S WHERE.

When humans resort to human sacrifice -- that's religion, that's the priests using their wiles to convince ordinary folk that that's how to appease God, or get rain, or be fertile, or get the crops to grow. Ordinary folk just go out in the field and plant corn, like they always did, and hope there's enough sun and rain to make it grow. When temple prostitution is used to try to encourage fertility, that's religion, that's the priests, pretending they know how to get the gods to favour their tribe over others -- when in fact they know diddly squat. Ordinary people are too busy with survival to be concerned with any of that nonsense.

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!​

 

[sun rise]

You're asking a very fundamental question about the nature of people and why so many don't act on their professed beliefs.

 

[InChrist]

How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves,

Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?

Think of it for a moment: what, right now, today, are most ordinary people doing everywhere in the world? They're trying to survive, trying to bring up their children, feed them and educate them. And trying not to get noticed by the "powers that be." This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu. Everywhere...it's what humans do!

Where, in this world, can you find a place where everybody in the whole society is acting with the kind of depravity that Christian love to accuse the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Canaanites, and so many others of? WHERE? NO WHERE---THAT'S WHERE.

When humans resort to human sacrifice -- that's religion, that's the priests using their wiles to convince ordinary folk that that's how to appease God, or get rain, or be fertile, or get the crops to grow. Ordinary folk just go out in the field and plant corn, like they always did, and hope there's enough sun and rain to make it grow. When temple prostitution is used to try to encourage fertility, that's religion, that's the priests, pretending they know how to get the gods to favour their tribe over others -- when in fact they know diddly squat. Ordinary people are too busy with survival to be concerned with any of that nonsense.

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!​

The scriptures plainly describe the state of the wickedness of humanity in the time before the flood with expressions and words as these...

...The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth

...that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time

...the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence

...for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways

(excerpts from Genesis 6)

Right now, today, we do not see all ordinary people demonstrating continual wickedness because societies have not reached that point yet, but it is occurring. Just look at all the lawlessness, violence, human trafficking, child abuse, abortion, etc. According to the scriptures, it will happen as more and more people reject God acting out in their own self-centered ways. At that point, the earth will be judged again, this time with fire and Christ will return in power over all evil.


As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Matthew 24:37

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. Luke 17:26

 

[siti]

This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu.

Are these listed in order of importance? I think you might have got the last two the wrong way round.

Actually Tuvalu is not too far from where I am. I've never been there but my son had a friend form there who came home now and again when they both at college together. Their biggest challenge is the reality of climate change - something else that it seems easy for the same group of people to get "horribly wrong".

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The scriptures plainly describe the state of the wickedness of humanity in the time before the flood with expressions and words as these...

...The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth

...that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time

...the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence

...for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways

(excerpts from Genesis 6)

Right now, today, we do not see all ordinary people demonstrating continual wickedness because societies have not reached that point yet, but it is occurring. Just look at all the lawlessness, violence, human trafficking, child abuse, abortion, etc. According to the scriptures, it will happen as more and more people reject God acting out in their own self-centered ways. At that point, the earth will be judged again, this time with fire and Christ will return in power over all evil.


As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Matthew 24:37

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. Luke 17:26

You may never understand this profound thought, but myth and history are not actually the same thing. You can quote from the Bible until the cows come home, but until you can answer the question I asked -- which means actually taking a look at human nature and human history -- you are merely bloviating.

And let me just point out -- you yourself quoted that "every inclination of the human heart" and "all the people of the earth." Where does that leave Noah and the other 7? Weren't they human? weren't they people of the earth?

 

[siti]

And let me just point out -- you yourself quoted that "every inclination of the human heart" and "all the people of the earth." Where does that leave Noah and the other 7? Weren't they human? weren't they people of the earth?

Very much so - and Noah proved it not long after betting out of the ark - he got pissed as a fart and exposed himself to his son...guess he must have been the best of a really bad bunch.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Very much so - and Noah proved it not long after betting out of the ark - he got pissed as a fart and exposed himself to his son...guess he must have been the best of a really bad bunch.

Hard to see why exposing yourself to your son is such a scary deal. I grew up when the YMCA was naked swimming, and dads, sons, uncles and strangers were all equally exposed. They don't seem to have come down with anything terminal, as a result.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!

In my experience, there is a very strong emphasis to accept what the Bible says as god's will, word, and perfect judgements while foregoing the "flawed" human positions that lack the understanding that god has. God's way is best, they say, and humans are sinful, weak, if you think something differently than what god said it's hubris.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves,

Is there nobody who can see what utter nonsense this is?

Think of it for a moment: what, right now, today, are most ordinary people doing everywhere in the world? They're trying to survive, trying to bring up their children, feed them and educate them. And trying not to get noticed by the "powers that be." This is true in America. It's true in China, and Russia and North and South Korea, Somalia, Chad, England and even Tuvalu. Everywhere...it's what humans do!

Where, in this world, can you find a place where everybody in the whole society is acting with the kind of depravity that Christian love to accuse the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Canaanites, and so many others of? WHERE? NO WHERE---THAT'S WHERE.

When humans resort to human sacrifice -- that's religion, that's the priests using their wiles to convince ordinary folk that that's how to appease God, or get rain, or be fertile, or get the crops to grow. Ordinary folk just go out in the field and plant corn, like they always did, and hope there's enough sun and rain to make it grow. When temple prostitution is used to try to encourage fertility, that's religion, that's the priests, pretending they know how to get the gods to favour their tribe over others -- when in fact they know diddly squat. Ordinary people are too busy with survival to be concerned with any of that nonsense.

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!​

I agree with you, except for your portrayal of religion as some sort of con by priests to fool the people. The development of religion was a more organic process than that, not to mention that not all cultures viewed priests as having much authority. In Classical Greece, for example, poets were viewed as more sacred than merely being a priest. Anyone could be a priest so that wasn't special.

What really makes those statements od Christians chilling is that they can be used to justify any genocide since they greatly dehumanize their targets, by presenting them as monsters with no control over themselves. This is common in genocidal rhetoric.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Very much so - and Noah proved it not long after betting out of the ark - he got pissed as a fart and exposed himself to his son...guess he must have been the best of a really bad bunch.

And cursed his son, not because his son was naked and drunk, but because he saw his father in such a state. We today would call that abusive, and if the children young enough remove them from such a toxic environment.

 

[Enoch07]

How many times, in these forums, have I heard it said that "humans bring it all on themselves

This is true though. If you don't believe in God or religion then this should be especially true for you. If humans don't bring pain and suffering onto ourselves than who does? Not God according to you because he doesn't exist. So it has to be humans.

 

[Kenny]

I don't need to do Bible examples, Ken. You know what I think about the Bible, and you also know how familiar I am with it (from a literature point of view, since literature is one of my great interests).

How is it, I ask myself, that so many Christians seem to get this simple, fundamental point so horribly wrong? Does their religion actually reduce their ability to think reasonably? I really want to know!

So, let me get this straight... first you say it is only from a literature point of view and unable/unwilling to give me a Bible example and then proceeds to say how horribly wrong Christian are?

WOW... doesn't that say a lot!

 

[Kenny]

When humans resort to human sacrifice -- that's religion,

Absolutely! Atheism is a religion as Mao and Stalin sacrificed their own people.

 

[sooda]

In my experience, there is a very strong emphasis to accept what the Bible says as god's will, word, and perfect judgements while foregoing the "flawed" human positions that lack the understanding that god has. God's way is best, they say, and humans are sinful, weak, if you think something differently than what god said it's hubris.

Actually in the flood story they learned in Babylon the gods drowned the humans because they were noisy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually in the flood story they learned in Babylon the gods drowned the humans because they were noisy.

I remember that. What a funny reason.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Actually in the flood story they learned in Babylon the gods drowned the humans because they were noisy.

Those are gods I can sympathize with, lmao!

 

[InChrist]

You may never understand this profound thought, but myth and history are not actually the same thing. You can quote from the Bible until the cows come home, but until you can answer the question I asked -- which means actually taking a look at human nature and human history -- you are merely bloviating.

And let me just point out -- you yourself quoted that "every inclination of the human heart" and "all the people of the earth." Where does that leave Noah and the other 7? Weren't they human? weren't they people of the earth?

Yes, Noah and his family were human and I am sure that even when the Bible says Noah was righteous it does not mean sinless. What it does mean is that he demonstrated faith in God. Noah believed, trusted, and obeyed God.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So, let me get this straight... first you say it is only from a literature point of view and unable/unwilling to give me a Bible example and then proceeds to say how horribly wrong Christian are?

WOW... doesn't that say a lot!

Those two paragraphs say....you do not know what I said. Go back and start again.

 

[Kenny]

Those two paragraphs say....you do not know what I said. Go back and start again.

The statement stands... regardless of the different subjects.

 

[InChrist]

Hard to see why exposing yourself to your son is such a scary deal. I grew up when the YMCA was naked swimming, and dads, sons, uncles and strangers were all equally exposed. They don't seem to have come down with anything terminal, as a result.

It was an entirely different culture with different requirements in place demonstrating respect or disrespect.