Bizarre Sayings of Paul

[rocala]

Hi @Deeje, thanks for your response.
The term used by Paul and in my post was rulers not state. I feel correct in using it here.
Secondly, not having done Bible study since school, I am a little puzzled by your mention of Jesus being handed over to the Jews? Are you saying that he was crucified by the Jews? I would have thought that a death penalty from them would have involved stoning.

 

[sooda]

Hi Deeje, thanks for your response.
The term used by Paul and in my post was rulers not state. I feel correct in using it here.
Secondly, not having done Bible study since school, I am a little puzzled by your mention of Jesus being handed over to the Jews? Are you saying that he was crucified by the Jews? I would have thought that a death penalty from them would have involved stoning.

The Jews were not allowed to execute anyone.

John 18:31

King James Bible
Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

 

[Deeje]

The Romans weren't the state?

If you are speaking about Jesus, the Roman Governor found him not guilty. He had broken no Roman laws.
Pilate handed him over to the Jews because they threatened to report him to Caesar for treason.....a capital offense.

When Jesus said...."forgive them Father for they know not what they do"...he wasn't talking about the Jews...he was talking about the Romans who were just following orders. The Jewish Leaders knew exactly what they were doing and that is why Jesus consigned them to "Gehenna".

 

[rocala]

The Jews were not allowed to execute anyone.

So he was killed by the ruling Romans. Thank you.

 

[sooda]

So he was killed by the ruling Romans. Thank you.

Yes, that's correct.

 

[sooda]

If you are speaking about Jesus, the Roman Governor found him not guilty. He had broken no Roman laws.
Pilate handed him over to the Jews because they threatened to report him to Caesar for treason.....a capital offense.

When Jesus said...."forgive them Father for they know not what they do"...he wasn't talking about the Jews...he was talking about the Romans who were just following orders. The Jewish Leaders knew exactly what they were doing and that is why Jesus consigned them to "Gehenna".

You've mixed it up.

To tell Pilate that He was the King of the Jews was to risk being condemned for high treason.

To admit to the Jews that He was the Son of God was to convince them that Jesus was guilty of blasphemy (for which they excused their initiative in putting Jesus to death).

 

[Deeje]

Hi @Deeje, thanks for your response.
The term used by Paul and in my post was rulers not state. I feel correct in using it here.

Yes, I understand what you mean, but in the two instances mentioned, it was the rulers acting independently of their state positions, who took the lives of John and Jesus. Both were guilty of taking the lives of men who had committed no crime against the state.

Secondly, not having done Bible study since school, I am a little puzzled by your mention of Jesus being handed over to the Jews? Are you saying that he was crucified by the Jews? I would have thought that a death penalty from them would have involved stoning.

Yes. The Jewish leaders cried out to Pilate when he offered to release Jesus as an innocent man: “If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Every man making himself a king speaks against Caesar.” (John 19:12) The term “friend of Caesar” was a title of honor often bestowed on provincial governors; but the Jewish leaders here evidently used it in a general way, implying that Pilate was laying himself open to the charge of condoning high treason. Fear of a jealous emperor was a factor influencing Pilate in pronouncing the death sentence on an innocent man. Meanwhile the priests loudly proclaimed their loyalty to the imperial throne, saying, “We have no king but Caesar,” thereby rejecting any theocratic rule. (John 19:13-16)

They used Pilate to do their dirty work. Stoning was practiced but as in the case of Paul, it wasn't always fatal.
The Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead.

"Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” 25 At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.” 26 Then he released Bar·abʹbas to them, but he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to be executed". (Matthew 27:24-26)

Jesus asked no forgiveness for those Jewish Leaders.

 

[sooda]

Yes, I understand what you mean, but in the two instances mentioned, it was the rulers acting independently of their state positions, who took the lives of John and Jesus. Both were guilty of taking the lives of men who had committed no crime against the state.



Yes. The Jewish leaders cried out to Pilate when he offered to release Jesus as an innocent man: “If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Every man making himself a king speaks against Caesar.” (John 19:12) The term “friend of Caesar” was a title of honor often bestowed on provincial governors; but the Jewish leaders here evidently used it in a general way, implying that Pilate was laying himself open to the charge of condoning high treason. Fear of a jealous emperor was a factor influencing Pilate in pronouncing the death sentence on an innocent man. Meanwhile the priests loudly proclaimed their loyalty to the imperial throne, saying, “We have no king but Caesar,” thereby rejecting any theocratic rule. (John 19:13-16)

They used Pilate to do their dirty work. Stoning was practiced but as in the case of Paul, it wasn't always fatal.
The Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead.

"Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” 25 At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.” 26 Then he released Bar·abʹbas to them, but he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to be executed". (Matthew 27:24-26)

Jesus asked no forgiveness for those Jewish Leaders.

A Gentile Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, condemned Jesus to death and had him tortured and executed by Gentile Roman soldiers. The Jews couldn't execute anyone by stoning or otherwise.

 

[Deeje]

A Gentile Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, condemned Jesus to death and had him tortured and executed by Gentile Roman soldiers. The Jews couldn't execute anyone by stoning or otherwise.

It was the Romans who drove the nails.....but it was the Jews who provided the reason for the Christ's execution.
Paul was stoned a few times...it didn't stop the Jews from killing, they stoned Stephen.

 

[sooda]

It was the Romans who drove the nails.....but it was the Jews who provided the reason for the Christ's execution.
Paul was stoned a few times...it didn't stop the Jews from killing, they stoned Stephen.

Sounds like they stoned Stephen outside the law.

The Judeans hated Jesus because he was an upstart from Galilee.

This is something often ignored, but very important to understanding the political climate.

Judas of Galilee, or Judas of Gamala, was a Jewish leader who led resistance to the census imposed for Roman tax purposes by Quirinius in Judea Province around 6 AD. He encouraged Jews not to register and those that did had their houses burnt and their cattle stolen by his followers.

 

[rocala]

@sooda , @Deeje , thanks to both for your input.
If we take Paul's comment

Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. Romans 13:3

Then add the biblical account of the trial, I cannot help but get a nasty feeling that the Romans are coming out of this very very clean. My suspicions are all the more so considering Pilates track record from non-biblical sources.

 

[sooda]

@sooda , @Deeje , thanks to both for your input.
If we take Paul's comment


Then add the biblical account of the trial, I cannot help but get a nasty feeling that the Romans are coming out of this very very clean. My suspicions are all the more so considering Pilates track record from non-biblical sources.

The Romans do get a pass on the crucifixion. Remember Paul died a couple of years before the destruction of the temple.. The Herodians and others were considered collaborators with the Roman status quo by then.

 

[Deeje]

@sooda , @Deeje , thanks to both for your input.
If we take Paul's comment

Paul was speaking generally, not specifically about anyone in particular. He was basically saying if you don't break the law you have nothing to fear.

Then add the biblical account of the trial, I cannot help but get a nasty feeling that the Romans are coming out of this very very clean.

The Romans were not clean at all, but the Pax Romana meant that they wanted a relative peace in their realm. They tolerated the Jews and allowed them relative freedom. But the Romans themselves were cruel and brutal in their treatment of their enemies or those who broke their laws. Their executions were some of the most brutal, maximising pain and suffering. Execution by impalement often involved hour upon hour of near suffocation, pushing up with their feet to inflate collapsing lungs, so when they had had enough, they broke their legs and allowed them to die gasping. Horrible people. That said, they were not responsible for the death of Christ.....that lay squarely at the feet of the Jews. Pilate merely caved in trying to preserve his own life.

My suspicions are all the more so considering Pilates track record from non-biblical sources.

He was a weak individual. Not an honourable man at all. He went from pronouncing Jesus innocent and wanting to release him, to handing him over for execution, and threw in a good flogging with a flagellem for good measure, ripping open Jesus' flesh, just to appease his accusers. It did him no good in the end.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If you are speaking about Jesus, the Roman Governor found him not guilty. He had broken no Roman laws.
Pilate handed him over to the Jews because they threatened to report him to Caesar for treason.....a capital offense.

When Jesus said...."forgive them Father for they know not what they do"...he wasn't talking about the Jews...he was talking about the Romans who were just following orders. The Jewish Leaders knew exactly what they were doing and that is why Jesus consigned them to "Gehenna".

Pontius Pilates title was prefect or procurator? From my understanding, he was in a low-level administrative position.

 

[sooda]

Pontius Pilates title was prefect or procurator? From my understanding, he was a low-level administrative position.

That's correct.

 

[blü 2]

If any of you can explain to us how these examples make any sense I will be grateful for your effort but it should be a rational explanation. Let the weirdness begin.

One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons. This testimony is true. Titus 1:12-13

Titus, and 1 and 2 Timothy, are thought to be pseudepigraphs these days ie not by Paul, but never mind. Titus 1 is about appointing elders of the church, how they must be blameless &c &c; and the insubordinate, the empty talkers, the gluttons &c &c must be silenced; so this says, such a person said Cretans are bad news, which they are, so 'rebuke them sharply'.

Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. Romans 13:3

This is just Paul sucking up to the Romans ─ not the addressees, rather, the Romans running the Roman world. He does that on lots of occasions.

Women will be saved through childbearing 1 Timothy 2:15

Another pseudepigraph. This is part of a general put-down of women eg 'I permit no women to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent'. The author adds that childbearing isn't enough ─ she must continue in faith and love and holiness with modesty.

And so on.

 

[sooda]

Titus, and 1 and 2 Timothy, are thought to be pseudepigraphs these days ie not by Paul, but never mind. Titus 1 is about appointing elders of the church, how they must be blameless &c &c; and the insubordinate, the empty talkers, the gluttons &c &c must be silenced; so this says, such a person said Cretans are bad news, which they are, so 'rebuke them sharply'.
This is just Paul sucking up to the Romans ─ not the addressees, rather, the Romans running the Roman world. He does that on lots of occasions.
Another pseudepigraph. This is part of a general put-down of women eg 'I permit no women to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent'. The author adds that childbearing isn't enough ─ she must continue in faith and love and holiness with modesty.

And so on.

I wonder if Paul knew many people from Crete???

 

[SugarOcean]

Paul is a pure contradiction of the Bible, the very fact that he's even in there shows how made-up and redacted the Bible is because he couldn't have met Jesus because people were instructed not to believe if someone came down before all the signs were fulfilled whom said that he was Jesus, whereas Paul strangely claimed it was.

It totally destroys Christianity or at least changes it substantially we're either the second coming is fabricated or had already occurred , or Paul is purely fabricated and added in.

Wrong!
As I said, people that follow Saul's writings are often called, Paulines.
His false teachings do not abrogate the truth of God in Christ and Christ's truth and teachings.
Though that is exactly what Rome and the enemy of God intended.

 

[sooda]

Wrong!
As I said, people that follow Saul's writings are often called, Paulines.
His false teachings do not abrogate the truth of God in Christ and Christ's truth and teachings.
Though that is exactly what Rome and the enemy of God intended.

John of Patmos wrote that Jesus would be returning soon .. before the current generation tasted death and he was telling the 7 churches what Jesus said. Paul had nothing to do with that. He was already dead by 68 AD.

Paul had NOTHING to do with the Book of Revelation. How can you blame him?

 

[PruePhillip]

Not all Christians are what are known as , "Paulines".
Take a look at just one example. Jesus Words Only, website.
Jesus forewarned his Disciples of what would later appear as Saul. He instructed them, no not believe them.
The Apostles of Christ never referred to Saul as an Apostle. Though Saul self-identified as such multiple times in his own writings. Instead, the Apostles referred to Saul as brother. Which was a term for any believer in those days.

Wha... these theories appear a lot in save-by-grace-alone churches. The words
of Jesus differ little from those of Paul. If anything Jesus was harsher and more
narrow minded. I have the figures if you are interested, but in a Red Letter Bible
about half of all Jesus' sayings involve works, requirements and judgements.
This is figure is almost identical to Paul's.
The bottom line is there are requirements for salvation - it's not merely a gift,
and you can lose it easily.